Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[Al Stewart]

Todd,
I'm enjoying your thread. It appears the G3 manual recommends the equidistant triangle set up. Are you following that approach? (Since we spoke at dinner last month I'm pretty sure you have moved the position of your Trios.) BTW the videos are very good. Keep it coming.
Regards
Al

 

[Carlos269]

IMO this is the proper way to maximize the visit by a set up professional. Get the system as far as you can, burned in, hundreds of hours and then let ST or JS do their thing. I also believe for most that this is the best money they will ever spnd. I speak from my own personal experience of hearing large numbers of systems of all kinds of gear that is just not set up to their best possible outcome.

Elliot, so who sets up your speakers for you? You are prescribing a process that I would think you follow yourself.

 

[andromedaaudio]

@ sbnx
Why not buy a Clio pocket system for example
Its 650 euros , incl microphone
Or another cheaper system that works/ is accurate .

Given the total system price of the AG s its chump change .
You have so much adjustability on those horns with bass modules its easy to get lost if you only go by ear
You can measure what you hear and vice versa and adjust accordingly .
Music is recorded in so many different studios which all have different studio monitors which determine the final outcome of the mix , adjusting only by ear is almost impossible afaic, you can keep doing it endlessly with each song
You need to find some mediar
With measurements you always have a reference..
Those bass units can put out an enormous amount of low freq SPL , so i m sure you can find a equilibrium.



Ps The same for wilson owners , for wilson i would tune the mid/ tweeter modules down +- 3 db to hear at least some bass.

 

[Elliot G.]

There are lots of members on WBF that have used Stirling or Jim and have posted here and lots more that may not have . I personally know of many but it’s not place to name names.
Maybe you should start a thread and ask that question.

 

[bonzo75]

if i had to start over, not sure i have it in me to do it again. a huge commitment.

it will keep you young

 

[microstrip]

There are lots of members on WBF that have used Stirling or Jim and have posted here and lots more that may not have . I personally know of many but it’s not place to name names.
Maybe you should start a thread and ask that question.

Well, I have not seen these "lots of members". We had such an asking thread not long ago, two people replied and one of them is still happily moving speakers ...

As far as I see Stirling and Jim have very different approaches. I got the Jim book and DVDs and learned a lot from them, unhappily we are still waiting for his promised new book.

Please note that I am not addressing Stirling or Jim expertise, mainly the audiophile need to change things in this hobby and his permanent desire to carry experiments, looking for differences.

 

[Elliot G.]

Well, I have not seen these "lots of members". We had such an asking thread not long ago, two people replied and one of them is still happily moving speakers ...

As far as I see Stirling and Jim have very different approaches. I got the Jim book and DVDs and learned a lot from them, unhappily we are still waiting for his promised new book.

Please note that I am not addressing Stirling or Jim expertise, mainly the audiophile need to change things in this hobby and his permanent desire to carry experiments, looking for differences.

I can’t address audiophiles that continuously want to play with gear and constantly move their speakers as that to me means they aren’t satisfied or happy. i guess if that is their goal they would not hire someone to set their system up. I know as I said a bunch of people that have used their services and when i talked with Stirling at MOC he was staying overseas for quite a while traveling to preform service all over Europe.
If one is happy with their results or likes changing all the time then do that however many are not and truly don’t know how to get the most out of their purchases and room.
My point is not to argue only to point out how one could get the most out of that type of investment.

As a dealer and a distributor I have visited many homes, seen and heard many systems and sadly most need a lot of work however one has to realize that before they do anything. I personally believe many of these issues are created by the purchaser who may be enthusiastic but lacks experience and expertise.
There are those that may be able to accomplish this by themselves but in my experience not many.
BTW there are quite a few manufacturers that use Stirling as well.
We can all learn and no one knows everything about every possible combination

 

[sbnx]

@ sbnx
Why not buy a Clio pocket system for example
Its 650 euros , incl microphone
Or another cheaper system that works/ is accurate .

Given the total system price of the AG s its chump change .
You have so much adjustability on those horns with bass modules its easy to get lost if you only go by ear
You can measure what you hear and vice versa and adjust accordingly .
Music is recorded in so many different studios which all have different studio monitors which determine the final outcome of the mix , adjusting only by ear is almost impossible afaic, you can keep doing it endlessly with each song
You need to find some mediar
With measurements you always have a reference..
Those bass units can put out an enormous amount of low freq SPL , so i m sure you can find a equilibrium.



Ps The same for wilson owners , for wilson i would tune the mid/ tweeter modules down +- 3 db to hear at least some bass.

I have a clio sysrem as well as a setup using REW. Earlier in the thread i posted a video where i reviewed som measurements i took at various locations.

in my experience, measurements are useful in the bass region to assess the best place to sit (a la Jim Smith) and to find a general area for the speakers that has flatish bass response.

Someone could prove me wrong but one can not get a correct speaker setup using only REW or clio. For example, where in the measurements would one look to find the fact that the soundstage is not level between the right and left speaker? But this is very easily detected and adjusted for by ear.

As for setup, i am not lost or meandering around. I have very specific things i am listening for and making adjustments to fix those inaccuracies.

Also, i am not in a huge hurry. I got the cables and had to accommodate for those and there are a couple other things that have not arrived yet. Once those arrive I will be able to complete the setup.

 

[sbnx]

Todd,
I'm enjoying your thread. It appears the G3 manual recommends the equidistant triangle set up. Are you following that approach? (Since we spoke at dinner last month I'm pretty sure you have moved the position of your Trios.) BTW the videos are very good. Keep it coming.
Regards
Al

Thanks Al. Yes, the manual gives a typical distance of 3 to 4 meters and shows an equilateral triangle. This seems like a pretty generic recommendation. I don’t specifically try for an equilateral triangle setup. The speakers end ip where they sound best. Jim Smith has always suggested a shorter distance between the speakers (83%)..

I will measure the distance from the centerline and the speaker and let you know.

 

[DSkip]

The idea looks nice, everyone seems to love it, but I have not read of any member of this forum that has a system set up and tuned by such experts. It they exist I would like to know about their experience.

What I read mostly in audio forums it that people pay a lot to experts to design their rooms and than do not use them as advised by the designers ...

I can not speak to all the forum, but I can say I’ve learned some of this process and utilized it in my own systems. The results have gotten others that were on the fence with upgrades to jump fully in the water and overhaul their entire systems. Not only that, but having the speaker setup included in a deal is now a huge deal for them as well. In fact, I got an email just today from a friend of a client that I did a brief setup for a few months ago. As Elliot said, spending money on a good setup is one of the best investments one can make.

 

[caesar]

Hi Sbnx,
As fun as the setup exercise is, I hope you’re able to let go of the analysis mode to enjoy the music.

on the subject of music, is this an all around speaker? Or does it favor certain types of music?

also, how does the system sound with older recordings? (I’m jamming some Grateful Dead Dicks picks 1 tonight, which has been remastered from original 2 track tape. Although sonically it’s not as sonically impressive as the well recorded American Beauty, live dead concerts are much more magical enjoyable than the well recorded studio albums.)

 

[caesar]

I can not speak to all the forum, but I can say I’ve learned some of this process and utilized it in my own systems. The results have gotten others that were on the fence with upgrades to jump fully in the water and overhaul their entire systems. Not only that, but having the speaker setup included in a deal is now a huge deal for them as well. In fact, I got an email just today from a friend of a client that I did a brief setup for a few months ago. As Elliot said, spending money on a good setup is one of the best investments one can make.

yes, but how does a speaker setup expert know the full potential of the speaker he is setting up? Those guys are probably better at setting up the more popular brands. But Seems like one needs a setup guy who knows the brand really well To get it exactly perfect.

 

[DSkip]

yes, but how does a speaker setup expert know the full potential of the speaker he is setting up? Those guys are probably better at setting up the more popular brands. But Seems like one needs a setup guy who knows the brand really well To get it exactly perfect.

Some don’t, but the key is reference points, not limitations. If you know what a well tuned system can do then you have a proper reference point. In this case, your setup is usually only as good as that reference as that is your pinnacle. With guys like ST, there is enough experience there to know they have the points necessary.

 

[caesar]

Some don’t, but the key is reference points, not limitations. If you know what a well tuned system can do then you have a proper reference point. In this case, your setup is usually only as good as that reference as that is your pinnacle. With guys like ST, there is enough experience there to know they have the points necessary.

I understand what you are saying. But I would rather have Jeremy Bryan or Jurgen Reis setup the MBL Extreme system. And have the Avantgarde experts set up an Avantgarde Trio system as they would be more familiar with all of the setting options, than a guy who knows Wilson, magico, and does most of the work with box speakers for guys with hifi tastes. Granted, he is better than the vast majority of the dealers/ experts/ schmucks in the industry, but given the choice...

 

[bonzo75]

I understand what you are saying. But I would rather have Jeremy Bryan or Jurgen Reis setup the MBL Extreme system. And have the Avantgarde experts set up an Avantgarde Trio system as they would be more familiar with all of the setting options, than a guy who knows Wilson, magico, and does most of the work with box speakers for guys with hifi tastes. Granted, he is better than the vast majority of the dealers/ experts/ schmucks in the industry, but given the choice...

Jim Smith was distro for AG

 

[caesar]

Jim Smith was distro for AG

Yes, and my understanding is that he has trained a large number of dealers getting into the game, such as Rhapsody, Audioshark dealership forum guy, and countless of others no one is even aware of

 

[caesar]

Regardless, since I love spending other people's money, I think Sbnx should hire both Trayle and Jim Smith and learn as much as possible from each of these gentlemen.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Regardless, since I love spending other people's money, I think Sbnx should hire both Trayle and Jim Smith and learn as much as possible from each of these gentlemen.

naaah.

i think Todd has done the work to go his own way. he got the room right, then learned the room, tried other speakers in it, and approached the Trio's very objectively. his process combined with his clear considerable tech knowledge puts him in a great spot. and he is enjoying the discovery process.

give him 6-12 more months to play around. these things take time. hired guns come in and fix things. it's not the long game. Todd is playing the long game.

my own process was 10 years of stumbling around, my speaker builder/designer spending a couple days, then me finding my own reference and finally doing the 9 month final tune process. but i (1) never had Todd's tech knowledge, and (2) my speakers were not as challenging as the Trio's.

could others get more from my room? it might get better or get worse with things they might try. who knows? i know i'm happy. and i loved the personal journey. but the room and time commitment Todd and i have made is not for everyone. so agree that Jim Smith and Trayle are great ideas for many.

 

[caesar]

naaah.

i think Todd has done the work to go his own way. he got the room right, then learned the room, tried other speakers in it, and approached the Trio's very objectively. his process combined with his clear considerable tech knowledge puts him in a great spot. and he is enjoying the discovery process.

give him 6-12 more months to play around. these things take time. hired guns come in and fix things. it's not the long game. Todd is playing the long game.

my own process was 10 years of stumbling around, my speaker builder/designer spending a couple days, then me finding my own reference and finally doing the 9 month final tune process. but i (1) never had Todd's tech knowledge, and (2) my speakers were not as challenging as the Trio's.

could others get more from my room? it might get better or get worse with things they might try.. who knows? i know i'm happy. and i loved the personal journey.

Good points, Mike. I think Snbx has done an incredible job with his system, as his sound has already surpassed what he heard at the distributor's place. And has also exposed a key, shameful missing of the industry: guys just buy very expensive boxes and cables. they listen for differences, but so few industry pros can really maximize the investment. I can't even go to dealers places because their systems sound so horrible and disrespects the brands they represent; it's just a waste of time

Yet "Know Thyself" is the key. Personally, I'm at a point where I don't want to drive myself nuts listening to the same songs over and over for differences - for months or years. I just want to turn the system on and immediately snap into the state of flow. But we are all different and have different goals. I am glad you enjoyed your journey. Obviously, by all accounts, your system is Mt. Everest level

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Good points, Mike. I think Snbx has done an incredible job with his system, as his sound has already surpassed what he heard at the distributor's place. And has also exposed a key, shameful missing of the industry: guys just buy very expensive boxes and cables. they listen for differences, but so few industry pros can really maximize the investment. I can't even go to dealers places because their systems sound so horrible and disrespects the brands they represent; it's just a waste of time

Yet "Know Thyself" is the key. Personally, I'm at a point where I don't want to drive myself nuts listening to the same songs over and over for differences - for months or years. I just want to turn the system on and immediately snap into the state of flow. But we are all different and have different goals. I am glad you enjoyed your journey. Obviously, by all accounts, your system is Mt. Everest level

i'm happy and satisfied with what i hear. no illusions it's right for everyone, but it is for me. for today at least.

i'm a gear slut, and music lover/collector that is also a room optimizer. but not all of us have that hunger to futz. or the choice to have a room without too many limitations. so set-up guru's have their place.

the big point is that if you don't have the hunger to push room set-up yourself, but have a system with lots of potential, then getting quality help is maybe the best next investment you can make. sorting out a system is the biggest step in the enjoyment process. but if you want great ROI on your hifi investment, someone needs to do it.