Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[Hear Here]

For what it worth, I went from Avantgarde Duo G2 Omega that I owned for about 15 years to Altec 817/288 following Bonzo’s advice, and to me there is no comparison
You’d never suspect how badly bass is integrated with the horn on Duos until you hear the Altecs, which are orders
Of magnitude better

I think much of the criticism of early Unos and Duos regarding bass integration can be overcome by more careful setting up, in particular the XO frequency setting . AG’s recommendation seems often to be too high so there is some argument between the mid horn and sub that seems to be the main source of this opinion.

The XD software is much more comprehensive than the earlier simple bass level and XO frequency dials. One can select the type of XO (Butterworh, Bessel, etc, about 14 choices) and 101 other settings to overcome integration difficulties. Whether critics have actually had XD kit in their own homes and spent time measuring and experimenting with the XD software, I seriously doubt from what they say.

Personally, I find this software rather too comprehensive and complicated so I’ve worked hard with room acoustic measures to minimise the needs for DSP. Looking at the G3 series downloads, I think that the new software is somewhat less complex and may be easier to apply.

Meanwhile, I’m more than happy with my Duos despite Bonzo’s somewhat bizarre opinions. He even ignores one valid reason why buyers choose the Duos over the Trios - cost!

 

[adyc]

For those who cannot get trios, I see no reason to get the smaller brother. Same is the case with Tune Audio Anima and hORNs Universum. I think people are too used to the logic that if we cannot get Dagostino 400, we get the 250, or if we cannot get the ARC Ref 10, we get the lower model. Or in speakers, those who cannot get a big Wilson get the Sasha. I get the logic on the others, definitely not on the three horns brands mentioned above. For smaller speakers than trio better to get Devore Orangutan O96 or Audionec Evo 2, and you can still run with SETs. Diesis at a higher price but still WAF. No reason to think we have to buy the smaller speaker of the same brand

What things in Duo make it fail and what things in Trio make it a success?

 

[Hear Here]

For what it worth, I went from Avantgarde Duo G2 Omega that I owned for about 15 years to Altec 817/288 following Bonzo’s advice, and to me there is no comparison
You’d never suspect how badly bass is integrated with the horn on Duos until you hear the Altecs, which are orders
Of magnitude better

Could we see a photo please? I’ve seen some home built horn systems that I wouldn’t offer floor space to in my own home. I’m not familiar with Altec speakers. Thanks

 

[bonzo75]

What things in Duo make it fail and what things in Trio make it a success?

The duos just don’t seem integrated, their upper ranges also seem strained. Trios just breathe more, the dynamics and the bass works great for them. Trio has complete hornloading allows for a presentation that flows more instead of sounding as strained as duos. Duos are 2-way*, the driver does not sound right for a 2-way to me (I conclude this based on the fact that trios have better mids/upper ranges than duos where duos sound strained to me). The horn mouth area with trios is much more, the horn extends lower allowing for more horn loading, everything down to 100 hz front firing horns and transitions better to bass horns. The duo also is much more forward and aggressive than the trio - maybe the way the trio tweeter is helps it, compared to the duo tweeter being in the middle. So what part is contributed by driver, what part by mouth size, what due to the difference in crossover causing it, or tweeter alignment, I cannot exactly say. I can only hear the sonic differences and then guess the technicalities.

* Ways + active bass, which is an additional way.

 

[bonzo75]

Could we see a photo please? I’ve seen some home built horn systems that I wouldn’t offer floor space to in my own home. I’m not familiar with Altec speakers. Thanks

Why have photos when you can have videos?

Zero Distortion: Altec Assault Redux: orchestra and rock

Report in preparation, but here is a taster. With Misho, Yanislav at Audio antiquary in Bulgaria.

www.whatsbestforum.com

Maril555s is similar, but he has the 15-cell horn. This is big too. Not saying someone with space constraints can accomodate, though space required here compared to duo is more width and depth than height.

 

[Uwiik]

I had nothing to do today and was bored at my office, so I decided to just go to the dealer because the owner is going to be there. Played around with toe in, speaker distance and modified the listening chair in the showroom so that my ear cannal is at exactly 110 cm from floor when sitting. WOW… what an undeniable improvement again!!! I really fell in love with this speaker, every little tweaks matter A LOT, sometimes for the worse making the sound really brash but a lot of times for the better when I just follow Todd’s direction…

We then decided to play around with cables, firstly I unplugged the RCA from the pre to Spacehorns and instead use speaker wire from the iTron to the Spacehorns just like Todd suggested and as a result we were in audio nirvana…. a lot more tauter bass and a lot more control, lots of improvement in overall imaging too…and off course we refuse to settle there, the dealer whip out his speaker cable collection and I did too….Siltech, Goebel and Esprit joined the battle….unbelievable result!! None of the megabucks speaker cable performed!!!! These were so bad we couldn’t stand it at all, initially we thought the megabucks cables need time to settle down but after a few songs on each cables we knew these megabucks speaker cable will never settle or perform right doesn’t matter how much time we are willing to give. It was so unbearable to listen to and was too obvious, we just hated these….we switched back to the very thin and flimsy stock speaker/jumper cable that came stock with the Trio G3 and we were all in heaven again…….We were all staring at each other in disbelief but it is what it is….Off course I am happy that I don’t have to spend my money on new speaker cable but still, the experience was weird….Now I understand what @Hear Here meant when he said he is happy with inexpensive Duelund cables on his AG, I made another appointment with the owner of the dealership to meet up again on Sunday to try my Duelund cable from my car audio…

After the dust has settled and we sat down, I took the opportunity to discuss with the intention of cutting a deal with the owner of the dealership. He told me he cannot decide on the trade in price right now because he still needs the speaker for Indonesian High End Audio Show (IHEAC) 2023 which will be held on 8th-10th November. He was so impressed by the G70+Ongaku combo on the Trio G3 so he instead wanted to borrow my Ongaku for the show because his Kondo gear couldn’t make it in time for the show, off course I am more than happy to oblige… The owner of Avantgarde Acoustic will be attending the show, so I am not sure if he will be happy listening to Ongaku instead of his iTron during the upcoming show

As for me, end of this year cannot come soon enough…I think the speaker won’t be in my home until December because even my new room is not fully done yet by now…..but WOW..this is how it feel to find an endgame system after wasting hundreds of thousands dollars keep on rolling my gears and never be truly happy. The feeling is…..calming and peaceful, never felt this way before in the audio world and I have been here for decades….

 

[Hear Here]

Why have photos when you can have videos?

Thanks. You can't judge the sound from any system by watching a Youtube video, but those speakers wouldn't be offered floor space in my own home, nor I doubt many potential horn owners' homes. I turned down big Quads for their "barn door" appearance, but they look far better than the speakers in the video - in my opinion!

DIY has a certain feel-good factor and indeed I used to build speakers myself that I was very proud of, but not just for their sound – their looks too. However, DIY often ends up looking like DIY and, unless one has a room dedicated solely to music listening, aesthetics do have to be considered.

Your notes about the claimed shortfalls with Duos are totally subjective and in some aspects seem to be ill informed, at least regarding the more recent XD Duos. By this I mean that owners of Duos hear none of the problems you describe, unless perhaps these are 20th Century versions!

Trios of course will (or at least should) sound even better because the bass XO is around 100 Hz instead of about 140 Hz and the rest is handled by 3 horn-loaded drivers instead of 2. This better sound quality is largely achieved by the vastly greater financial outlay required for a good Trio system. However, there's much less between the systems than you describe, particularly when price is taken into consideration.

 

[bonzo75]

DIY has a certain feel-good factor and indeed I used to build speakers myself that I was very proud of, but not just for their sound – their looks too. However, DIY often ends up looking like DIY and, unless one has a room dedicated solely to music listening, aesthetics do have to be considered.

You can have whatever aesthetics you choose. Whatever colour, whatever quality of wood and finish. If yours looked like DIY, that's on you. You could have commissioned someone to do it. Bespoke speakers don't have to be built yourself.

Your notes about the claimed shortfalls with Duos are totally subjective and in some aspects seem to be ill informed, at least regarding the more recent XD Duos. By this I mean that owners of Duos hear none of the problems you describe, unless perhaps these are 20th Century versions!

I have heard the XDs, GTs, Mezzos. I don't respect anyone's judgement who says there is a big difference in the iterations, they are all equally bad to me. Of course the owners don't hear it, they bought it. If we were to follow this logic than all products that are owned are good.

Trios of course will (or at least should) sound even better because the bass XO is around 100 Hz instead of about 140 Hz and the rest is handled by 3 horn-loaded drivers instead of 2. This better sound quality is largely achieved by the vastly greater financial outlay required for a good Trio system. However, there's much less between the systems than you describe, particularly when price is taken into consideration.

trio is a very good speaker, duo is a very bad one. There are lots of choices cheaper than the duo in other brands that can be had, commercially, without "DIY" and the floor space be saved.

 

[Blue58]

The duos just don’t seem integrated, their upper ranges also seem strained. Trios just breathe more, the dynamics and the bass works great for them. Trio has complete hornloading allows for a presentation that flows more instead of sounding as strained as duos. Duos are 2-way*, the driver does not sound right for a 2-way to me (I conclude this based on the fact that trios have better mids/upper ranges than duos where duos sound strained to me). The horn mouth area with trios is much more, the horn extends lower allowing for more horn loading, everything down to 100 hz front firing horns and transitions better to bass horns. The duo also is much more forward and aggressive than the trio - maybe the way the trio tweeter is helps it, compared to the duo tweeter being in the middle. So what part is contributed by driver, what part by mouth size, what due to the difference in crossover causing it, or tweeter alignment, I cannot exactly say. I can only hear the sonic differences and then guess the technicalities.

* Ways + active bass, which is an additional way.

Ked, I’m determined to make you change your mind, at least in part.
Only digital here, sorry, but if you want a refresher the door is open.

cheers

 

[Maril555]

I think much of the criticism of early Unos and Duos regarding bass integration can be overcome by more careful setting up, in particular the XO frequency setting . AG’s recommendation seems often to be too high so there is some argument between the mid horn and sub that seems to be the main source of this opinion.

The XD software is much more comprehensive than the earlier simple bass level and XO frequency dials. One can select the type of XO (Butterworh, Bessel, etc, about 14 choices) and 101 other settings to overcome integration difficulties. Whether critics have actually had XD kit in their own homes and spent time measuring and experimenting with the XD software, I seriously doubt from what they say.

Personally, I find this software rather too comprehensive and complicated so I’ve worked hard with room acoustic measures to minimise the needs for DSP. Looking at the G3 series downloads, I think that the new software is somewhat less complex and may be easier to apply.

Meanwhile, I’m more than happy with my Duos despite Bonzo’s somewhat bizarre opinions. He even ignores one valid reason why buyers choose the Duos over the Trios - cost!

I feel the issue is more fundamental than just the manner of adjustments
Bass is a reflex box driven by high power AB amp and the
Mid and treble are horn loaded, after driven by tube SE designs

 

[Maril555]

I feel the issue is more fundamental than just the manner of adjustments
Bass is a reflex box driven by high power AB amp and the
Mid and treble are horn loaded, after driven by tube SE designs

Often driven

 

[Maril555]

You can have whatever aesthetics you choose. Whatever colour, whatever quality of wood and finish. If yours looked like DIY, that's on you. You could have commissioned someone to do it. Bespoke speakers don't have to be built yourself.



I have heard the XDs, GTs, Mezzos. I don't respect anyone's judgement who says there is a big difference in the iterations, they are all equally bad to me. Of course the owners don't hear it, they bought it. If we were to follow this logic than all products that are owned are good.



trio is a very good speaker, duo is a very bad one. There are lots of choices cheaper than the duo in other brands that can be had, commercially, without "DIY" and the floor space be saved.

 

[Maril555]

Here you go

 

[Maril555]

And, BTW, my pair was made by a professional speaker-maker and the quality of construction is at least on par with the majority of commercial offerings
The finish one can choose from hundreds of samples

 

[sbnx]

Here is what Roy Gregory had to say about the Duo's i his "pre"-review of the AG Duo GT.

"In the past I’ve always struggled with previous versions of the Duo, ultimately finding the system integration too flawed for their obvious strengths to overcome my frustration with the low-end’s constant struggle to keep up with the rest of the range." ... "What has really transformed this speaker from an impressive but frustratingly uneven performer into a balanced and exceptionally capable system is the successful integration of the bass. Without that, the Duo GT could so easily have been all mouth and no trousers. As it is, the bass is more tuneable, higher quality and more easy to work with than ever before, finally allowing it to keep pace with not just the horns but the current amplification driving them"

It seems that Roy would tend to agree with Ked on the prior versions of the Duo. However, this doesn't seem to be the case for the new Duo GT.

It is very hard, if not improssible, to listen to a speaker in a system at someone's house or worse yet at a show and get a real sense of what that speaker is capable of doing. You have to get your hands dirty and experiment. Either with changing our some components to see what impact that has or with playing with positioning to understand the impact that has. Once you have spent some time with it then you can make categorical statements about bass integration or treble performance.

@Uwiik has done this. First just listening to what the dealer had on offer. Then moving his gear which he is very familiar with into the picture. Then comparing iTon to his gear in the same setup. Then asking the dealer to change the setup to move the bass bins to the outside fo the Trio. Then comparing Solid state (CH Precision). and finally, now he is exploring cables and really playing with positioning of the listening seat and speakers. At this point he is really starting to get a grip on what the Trio is capable of doing.

There is no doubt the Duo does not have the same performance level as the Trio. if it did then why buy a Trio? Perhaps there are other speakers that can outperform a Duo at the same or less cost. I don't know. But unless you have spent time actually moving the speaker and exploring it's potential then it is unfair to make statements that it is a horrible speaker.

 

[Maril555]

The w

And, BTW, my pair was made by a professional speaker-maker and the quality of construction is at least on par with the majority of commercial offerings
The finish one can choose from hundreds of sample

 

[Maril555]

The w

The quality of Duo bass cabinet is nothing to write home about IMO

 

[Hear Here]

I feel the issue is more fundamental than just the manner of adjustments
Bass is a reflex box driven by high power AB amp and the
Mid and treble are horn loaded, after driven by tube SE designs

In fact the Duo XD onwards use Class D amplifiers and the incoming signal is not necessarily from one's SET - it could be at line level from the preamp - user's choice.

I'll concede that the Trio with Basshorns has a big advantage over Duos with reflex bass enclosures, but very many (probably most) Trio users buy the identical bass enclosure (SUB231) for their Trios, or perhaps the Short Basshorn that the Duo Mezzo has. This may be because of the huge size of Basshorns or the cost of these monsters!

Certainly there are very many more adjustments within the XD version compared with earlier ones - whether that's a good thing or not is debatable. One can adjust through XD the bass frequency levels quite comprehensively. Unfortunately (unlike Dirac Live, RoomPerfect, etc) there's no "auto flatten" facility offered, so measurements have to be taken separately by REW and the resultant curve can be referred to in order to amend the XD software's flat line in order to compensate for the anomalies highlighted by REW.

Although Dirac offers a simple auto-adjust feature, I don't like using any DSP that's built into the main full-range amp as it adversely affects the top end, despite this top end not actually being adjusted. Sadly the entire audio signal has to endure the processor and some of Avantgarge's renowned goosebump factor is lost whenever I've used this type of DSP. With XD, this problem doesn't exist as ithe DSP is entirely within the sub's bass section electronics.

Personally I moved away from SETs after many years and auditioned at home a dozen ss amps of various flavours. You may be horrified that I chose a Class D main amp over all the others. I was not looking to "mimic" the SET sound, but to find an equally or more satisfying sound from my speakers. I was expecting a Class A to win the contest but surprisingly I was more convinced by a SOTA Class D - at a fraction the price of some others I tested.

 

[Hear Here]

If yours looked like DIY, that's on you. You could have commissioned someone to do it. Bespoke speakers don't have to be built yourself.

Clearly you didn't actually read my post

I don't respect anyone's judgement who says there is a big difference in the iterations, they are all equally bad to me. Of course the owners don't hear it, they bought it. If we were to follow this logic than all products that are owned are good.

In a word - cobblers!

trio is a very good speaker, duo is a very bad one.

Sorry to have to say it, but more cobblers!

 

[Lagonda]

Beautiful room, well thought out ! How large is it ? There should alway be a small asian man standing next to horn speakers, so we can get an idea of size !