Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[Uwiik]

(That would be my personal preference as well.)

But this report is very puzzling as AG has moved decidedly away from tubes.

To whom at AG are you referring?

The guy on the picture

 

[Uwiik]

For the passive mode with G3, Before digging your bank account and buing Kondo G1000, I suggest you to test the Japanese Bakoon Products. They are much cheaper than Kondo and with that unique SATRi circuit developed by Nagai-san over 30 years, they can be considered the best solid state option for horns.The Bakoon amps sound more like a really good SET but with so much better speed and better bottom end. My friend who has trio g2 compared 20w Bakoon amps (7511mk4 x2 + 7610 pre) to kondo Neiro and Ongaku and preferred Bakoon by a wide margin. Also, in this forum, those who had Bakoon experience with AGs, preferred Bakoon to their very good SETs.

I am committed to my dealer because he is also supporting me in every audio quests. He is a dealer for Kondo so I will stick with Kondo which I already have anyway, and no, with my recent experience of iTron vs Ongaku I don’t think I will ever venture into SS world. What I heard when they tested the G3 with FM Acoustic which is top of the line SS was also out of this world good (much better than iTron) but in the end I still like my Ongaku + G1000 much much more. Yes the FM have more oomph, speed and dynamic but what I heard on the Kondo was simply too magical. Thanks for the suggestions though

 

[Uwiik]

Ron I think he might be the ex head of marketing at AG… with a fairly recent redeployment to the mailroom and packing and dispatch.

I actually appreciated his honesty very much. Not everyone will admit what is so obvious and that fact will actually make me a loyal customer to AG. If he said otherwise then I know that he is talking out of his own interest and that’s not cool

 

[the sound of Tao]

If I look back at the progression of speakers that I have owned over the past 30 years they have become increasingly lifelike and dynamic in their portrayal of music. I have been looking for a presentation with a musical connection that my former speakers (Vivid Spirits and others) were not able to consistently deliver. So, I started on a journey to find what element(s) I was missing in the system and what components would be needed to deliver on my expectation. To make a long story shorter what was missing was timing and micro-dynamics.

I set out to find a speaker that would satisfy my lust for that emotional connection to music that was so hit or miss with previous systems. I had very few speakers on my list of candidates and interestingly the Avantgarde Trio G3 wasn’t originally on the list. I have never owned or seriously considered a horn speaker before because I had never heard a horn system setup in such a way that there weren’t compromises. But as fate would have it, about the time I was getting serious about a purchase the Tio G3 showed up on the scene. I listened at AXPONA 2022 and was not all that impressed with the sound. Sure the speaker looked cool but I was not convinced at that point. Knowing that one should never make strong judgements based on show conditions I contacted a few people to discuss what they thought was so great about the Trios. They said I really needed to hear them in a better location and that the Trio G3 is really a fantastic, world class speaker when setup properly. So, I contacted American Sound of Canada and arranged a visit to her place in August 2022. (I wrote about this visit in another thread.) The speakers sounded much better at her place but still not displaying the greatness I was expecting. What was obvious about the setup at American Sound is that the speakers were not optimized as they were not even on the spikes. But even with them not being very precisely setup they did not sound shouty or overly aggressive. I thought this was encouraging. Again after speaking with some industry experts I decided to take a leap of faith and purchase a pair of the Avantgarde Trio G3’s with the iTron amplifiers and a pair of Dual Spacehorns.

Other system elements are being put into place as well. I am looking for components with as little time smear as possible and are “quiet”. The component has not only the leading edge of the transient but also have lots of decay. With 109dB efficient speakers noise is a huge enemy of achieving realistic music. I spent a good amount of effort trying to understand the impact of the preamp and cables on timing. I purchased and L1/X1 to experiment with as well as playing with a few different cable lines. I will just say that not all preamps and cables are created equal when it comes to timing. I have ended up with an L10 for the preamp. I should get my new cables this week – Nordost Odin2. The digital also needs some work. (Sorry, no analog)

The speakers arrived in late January but there was an unfortunate shipping mishap and I didn’t get the full set of speakers in my room until mid-March. I have spent a good amount of time experimenting with placement and getting to know how the speaker responds to different adjustments. There is really no point in getting everything fully positioned until I get all of the front end settled, installed and broken in.

I am going to eventually post some videos I have done on install and setup of the Trios, but here are a few notes of interest. First, as Avantgarde points out in the manual you need to have your ear on the same equatorial plane as the tweeter. The tweeter sits at 43” off the floor and typical ear height is 36”-37”. In my system, the tweeter is right at 11’ from my ear so to achieve the proper ear to tweeter relationship requires a LOT of rake angle. I am currently at 3.16 degrees of forward rake. This can not be achieved with the provided spikes without putting the rear spike on some kind of thick foot. I had custom spikes make for the speaker that are from grade 5 Titanium and are M12X0.75. I had two spikes made that were extra long to accommodate the extra length needed to get the high rake angle. Problem solved. The second thing relates to what makes the Trio a truly viable speaker in my book. That is the fact that the tweeter distance can be adjusted to maintain driver time alignment as the toe-in is adjusted. I have found that the sound I get is very sensitive to the tweeter adjustment. It is pretty obvious when I have forgotten to adjust this after a small toe-in or azimuth change. The sound can get aggressive and shouty. But when I make a very small tweeter adjust everything gets right back in balance. The third major element is the spacehorn. These things weigh a ton so make sure you have plenty of help when it comes to moving them. I have positioned them on their side and on the outside of the main horns. These proved to not be that difficult to integrate to sound good. The bass is extremely fast and articulate -- no bloat, no overhang. After some adjustment of toe-in and rake they are coherent with the main horns. Of course it has built in DSP that can be used to adjust the crossover point and any EQ that someone might want. It is easy to use and adjustments can be made on the fly while listening.

The Sound so far has well exceeded my expectations and is delivering all the goods. Even with “cheap” cables and no tweaks it is crazy good. Dynamics are off the chart. Loads of low level detail and expressiveness in the music. There is none of this “cupped hands” or shoutyness or anything else I formerly associated with the “horn” sound. When I first moved them into the room I didn’t spend much time with positioning. Really just got them good enough to have a center image so I could begin the run-in process. They honestly sounded really good just like that and I could see how many might just love that sound and call it a day. It was a very “round” sound that you could just bask in its glow. It was still extremely expressive but it lacked in clarity, dynamics and of course the timing was pretty smeared. Once I got the left speaker dialed in with the current “cheap” cables etc, it is pretty much a WOW type experience. One example might be Paganini’s violin concerto No.2 from the album Paganini: Diabolus in Musica. There is no ear piercing going on with this violin. It is just articulate and extended with all of the expressiveness of a musician.

I know there are some out there that have a distaste for horns. I can understand your point as I would not say that I hated them in the past but it seemed there were some compromises I wasn’t really willing to trade this for that. I do honestly believe that a lot of this in any horn system is related to setup. But what Avantgarde has done with the Trio G3 is give me a zero trade off situation. I get all of the greatness of horns – high efficiency, dynamics, low level detail, musical expressiveness… – with none of the bad stuff I heard in the past – shouty, cupped, piercing, etc. The level of setup control is outstanding. Adjustable tweeter position to maintain time alignment, iTron current amp that allows control over spectral balance, adjustable gain to accommodate the preamp, DSP in the Spacehorn. If you have hated horns in the past you might want to give this new generation of Avantgarde’s a listen.

As the setup comes along I will post more and also post some videos of my comments during the setup process. I added the picture below because as the saying goes “It didn’t happen if there isn’t a picture”. As a note, I left the blue foam on while I was playing with the major positioning. The speakers aren’t in the front of the room any longer. I have pulled them back out to the middle.

Finally getting there.

There is a revitalised interest in horns over this last decade for sure and you can see in Todd’s op his aims are outlined clearly and his story represents one kind of approach where experienced non-horn audiophiles seek a new pathway chasing a ‘tech driven’’ type or more revolutionary iteration of horn. One that aims to capture the traditional strengths of horns (perhaps especially lifelike micro and macro dynamics) but utilises current technology to try and overcome what can be seen as traditional constraints in one of the earliest speaker types.

There are also another set of traditional horn lovers who are more aimed at continuing certain traditions including the marriage of horn and SET because they see them perhaps as the natural partnership when looking to a traditional kind of horn sound.

It’s hard to explain to those who haven’t experienced a great diversity of horns in depth or lived with a range of horns how essential the differences are… horns come in not just different cultivars but more a range of separate species of horns. After years of getting to a bit of a hook into the differences in types of horns I can begin to appreciate a bit more the aims of differing approaches.

There is always the return to tried and true approaches… perhaps that is a pathway Uwiik is treading. A current production form with traditional topologies and a bespoke level approach in SET amplification. Todd’s journey is just as fascinating. He’s got a huge investment of resources and time as well as energy tied up in this and he’s clearly giving it all and if he brings about a striking and wonderful sound system taking new approaches with horns that is also fabulous for the pursuit. I’d love to be able to hear both G3 setups. These guys are clearly taking things towards the outer edges.

 

[Hear Here]

But this report is very puzzling as AG has moved decidedly away from tubes.

But they've never been into tube amps, so they've not moved away! However they accept that many users will (probably because of long-held beliefs rather than open-minded listening tests!) want to stick with tubes. I spent my first 17 years as an AG owner believing that SETs were what one should use with horns, but after pretty exhausting tests with 12 ss amps, I moved away and won't be returning. My fuel bills have reduced significantly and music is playing for many more hours per day, powered by the dreaded Class D technology! No regrets. I presume AG's new amplification is Class D, perhaps under another name.

 

[abeidrov]

Do these all latest developments imply that transistor amplification finally is mature enough to compete with the best tubes and Ron soon will be the last man on earth to stick to the old ways (tubes)?

 

[the sound of Tao]

However they accept that many users will (probably because of long-held beliefs rather than open-minded listening tests!) want to stick with tubes.

I don’t understand why you need other people to share your preferences for solid state over tubes and instead disregard their choices as not being open minded? Some people genuinely just prefer tubes… or solid state… or panels… or dynamic box… or horns… or whatever… none of this invalidates any of your choices.

 

[spiritofmusic]

For the passive mode with G3, Before digging your bank account and buing Kondo G1000, I suggest you to test the Japanese Bakoon Products. They are much cheaper than Kondo and with that unique SATRi circuit developed by Nagai-san over 30 years, they can be considered the best solid state option for horns.The Bakoon amps sound more like a really good SET but with so much better speed and better bottom end. My friend who has trio g2 compared 20w Bakoon amps (7511mk4 x2 + 7610 pre) to kondo Neiro and Ongaku and preferred Bakoon by a wide margin. Also, in this forum, those who had Bakoon experience with AGs, preferred Bakoon to their very good SETs.

Had a fascinating experience a decade ago w Bakoon powering Cessaro Liszts horns. Only one issue, but this was spkrs/room related.
Wholly immersive and vibrant SQ.

 

[Al M.]

I don’t understand why you need other people to share your preferences for solid state over tubes and instead disregard their choices as not being open minded? Some people genuinely just prefer tubes… or solid state… or panels… or dynamic box… or horns… or whatever… none of this invalidates any of your choices.

Yes, there is nothing wrong with being enthusiastic about one's preferences, but that doesn't need to come at the expense of denigrating others' preferences.

I have heard, for the first time, excellent class D amplification at T.H.E. Show this year, PranaFidelity purna/ca and purna/ma, driving the PranaFidelity Dhyana speakers, which I now have as well. I loved it, yet I am glad that the Octave tube amplification that I have is also excellent at driving these speakers.

 

[Chop]

Do these all latest developments imply that transistor amplification finally is mature enough to compete with the best tubes and Ron soon will be the last man on earth to stick to the old ways (tubes)?

Valves aren't "the old ways". FWIW, I suspect it doesn't make much absolute difference to potential sound quality whether horns are driven by transistors or valves. There must be good and poorly executed examples of both.
- For what I have heard and can afford though, at this point in my journey I much prefer valves!

 

[andromedaaudio]

Even AG’a own guy admitted that Ongaku sounded better than iTron… that’s quite something

Whats a AG representative is gonna say to a dealer or customer who Invested a couple 100 K in audio note Japan gear , ....you made the wrong choice
Its called being sensible / diplomatic , it might not be his actual opinion.

AG has given great flexibility with this latest product , I tron , passive X over .

Always this moaning of audiophiles what is better .
Just admit its your preference and nothing more .

Off course if 51 % has the same opinion then the majority is " Right " , lol.

The rest of the time is then being wasted used on a audioforum to make fun of the other 49 %

 

[Al M.]

Always this moaning of audiophiles what is better .
Just admit its your preference and nothing more .

That's what most people just can't do. Big Ego is in the way.

 

[sbnx]

But they've never been into tube amps, so they've not moved away! However they accept that many users will (probably because of long-held beliefs rather than open-minded listening tests!) want to stick with tubes. I spent my first 17 years as an AG owner believing that SETs were what one should use with horns, but after pretty exhausting tests with 12 ss amps, I moved away and won't be returning. My fuel bills have reduced significantly and music is playing for many more hours per day, powered by the dreaded Class D technology! No regrets. I presume AG's new amplification is Class D, perhaps under another name.

Good morning, The iTron amp is a zero negative feedback, class A, current amplifier. It is 9 watts total (3 watts per channel). Somewhere it is said 100W but I believe that is what it dissipates. Each driver has it's own amplifier and this is how the "crossover" between the drivers is handled.

As I mentioned in some of the videos the iTron does offer the user some very nice benefits over an external amp. Namely, the switches allow the user to tailor the sound profile. For example, the big horn could be boosted by 1.5dB and the tweeter cut by 1.5dB. This is a big deal when getting the speakers dialed into the room. If one chooses an external amp then we get what we get. Also, the 3 overall gain switches allow the user to turn down the gain of the main trio. With this comes a reduction in noise floor and additional headroom for the spacehorns. My spacehorns are currently at -9 and there is plenty of bass (Down to 33 Hz).

Some people love tube sound. Some people prefer SS. I have no issue either way. I just want great sound. I have never really heard the Kondo amps so I can't comment or compare. SET's were never really my thing. Someday I may explore this space more. The cost of the passive crossover for the Trios is negligible compared with the cost of the amp.

In one of the videos on youtube they were interviewing the head of Avantgarde and he said he felt the iTron performs better in absolute terms but some prefer the sound of tubes. So they simply give people the option to choose and go on their own path. As Mike pointed out this is a fantastic business decision. Don't box people in.

 

[Hear Here]

I think you have experienced Korean Bakoon, they are good, but not as good as Japanese Bakoon, and of course they have some differences, for example, Japanese bakoon uses R-core transformer in the power supply, but the korean type uses toroidal one.

My Bakoon was the

Bakoon Amp-13R as described here​

https://headphones.com/blogs/reviews/2 anh

AMP-13R

6moons.com

Not sure where it was built but loaned by the UK distributor at the time

 

[Hear Here]

I don’t understand why you need other people to share your preferences for solid state over tubes and instead disregard their choices as not being open minded?

I'm sorry if it appeared that way. Not intended to criticise tube lovers in any way, but there are some who (judging by their own postings) are obviously never going to investigate the alternatives. Maybe I was in that camp for 15 years or so. As you say, each to his own.

 

[Al M.]

Not intended to criticise tube lovers in any way, but there are some who (judging by their own postings) are obviously never going to investigate the alternatives. Maybe I was in that camp for 15 years or so. As you say, each to his own.

That is a good point, agreed.

 

[Kozak170]

Comparing SETs with iTron is beyond the conventional comparison of SS vs SETs, because we are actually comparing current drive to voltage drive, and in current drive mode, due to the lack of speaker impedance and thermal compression of the voice coil, as well as the absence of passive crossover filters in The signal path between the amplification and the membrane, on paper we should expect a much more direct, faster and more dynamic sound that will induce that feeling of "you are there" much more compared to the voltage drive mode. And these are the advantages of iTron and current drive that Roy Gregory pointed out after hearing iTron and comparing it to Kondo. But Uwiik's observations violate the merits of iTron and he found kondo superior to iTron in all aspects even in terms of bass! which I think these contradictions go back to the issue of matching and sensitive gain settings of iTron versus the easier and less critical setup of passive mode, as Todd also pointed out.

So it seems that the iTron setup requires much more time and sensitivity, and comparing iTron to the passive mode in the setup of a dealer who knows a little about Avantgarde and iTron and using Kondo G70 preamp output to power the space horns, instead of using the output terminal of the speaker, can't give us a correct judgment about iTron and Kondo on AGs.

 

[Kozak170]

My Bakoon was the

Bakoon Amp-13R as described here​

https://headphones.com/blogs/reviews/2 anh

AMP-13R

6moons.com

Not sure where it was built but loaned by the UK distributor at the time

That's a korean one, The Korean made amps are basically just the Bakoon Japan circuit designs made under license.

 

[Hear Here]

That's a korean one, The Korean made amps are basically just the Bakoon Japan circuit designs made under license.

Thanks. Does this make them inferior in any way, or it like buying a Nissan built under license in the UK or US?

 

[Kozak170]

Thanks. Does this make them inferior in any way, or it like buying a Nissan built under license in the UK or US?

The Korean model Bakoon AMP-13R that you had is equal to the Japanese model 7511 mk3, which was released in 2013 and uses J-FETs transistors, but the new Korean models Enleum 23R, which are similar to the 7511 mk4 model, both were unveiled in 2022 and Their transistors have been changed to bipolar and they also benefit from the latest developments in the SATRi circuit. Also In terms of price, Japanese bakoons are much more valuable, and you can get the Japanese model 7511 mk4 with bakoon 7610 preamp for the price of the Korean Enleum 23R, which is sure to have a higher performance than the Korean model without seperate preamp.