Tonearm Comparison: SME 3012R and SME V-12

[Vienna]

I guess we are channeling each other today Bonzo.

thank you Peter for your videos. Have you used your phone for these recordings?

 

[PeterA]

thank you Peter for your videos. Have you used your phone for these recordings?

You are most welcome, Vienna. Yes, I have an iPhone 11. I tried making a few videos with my Nikon D850 and a good mic, but I could not get the recording loud enough on YouTube. I may revisit it someday.

 

[Folsom]

So is it going to scramble our brains when you reveal?

I heard good things in both. A could go Hifi, but that can be a little hard to tell on a vid. However B has weight to vocals, they sorta bloom into something that sound less like a recording.

I'd have to adjust one of them to be more satisfied if I were you Peter. Tang might be right.?

 

[PeterA]

So is it going to scramble our brains when you reveal?

I heard good things in both. A could go Hifi, but that can be a little hard to tell on a vid. However B has weight to vocals, they sorta bloom into something that sound less like a recording.

I'd have to adjust one of them to be more satisfied if I were you Peter. Tang might be right.?

Thank you for your feedback, Folsom. I might revisit set up of A.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Anyway Peter - are you going to let us know the A and B now? Lol. Waiting with bated breath here.

In terms of your 2nd query on the cello track, it is much harder to extrapolate from that back to the cart without hearing both again. I would have said A because I heard some congestion that I heard on A in the choral but I am absolutely unsure. Might have been easier with a violin because I would attempt to extrapolate the hardening of the upper mid again or not as my diagnostic.

 

[PeterA]

Thank you to everyone for sharing your impressions. That was really interesting.

Video A: SME 3012R
Video B: SME V-12

The Crumb Sonata for Solo Cello is played on the SME V-12.

One listener PM'd me with the correct guess. He has extensive experience with these two arms over many years. He also wrote that he felt listening directly through YouTube was slightly more transparent than listening through the WBF link on the site, I guess without opening YouTube.

With the exception of one listener who thought B was horrible, most listeners preferred B. I am pleased that differences were able to be discerned through the videos and that people were interested enough to listen and share their impressions. The videos are more or less reflective of what I hear when listening live to my system. The 3012R sounds a tad more open with just a bit more energy in the higher frequencies and it seems to have more "air", while the V-12 seems a bit more composed with a fuller more extended bass. However, the 3012R bass seems more defined and nuanced, and overall more natural.

This music does not capture all of that, or the excellent dynamics of which both arms are capable. I did try some music with more contrasts, and bigger peaks, but I think the mic gets overwhelmed. I do think this is a lovely piece of choral music and I wanted to share it.

I think I will enjoy the Grand Cru/V-12 combination for a while longer and then switch the cartridge back to the 3012R and try both lowering the VTF by 0.1 gram as Tang suggests and also lowering the VTA by a couple of playing cards. I must admit, despite years of owning this table and arm, and a variety of cartridges, the sound of my system has changed pretty dramatically over the last year or so, and I am coming to grips with those changes and trying to fully understand my new path toward a more natural sound. In this process, I am realizing that I still have a lot to learn about cartridge set up. The newest Colibris are unlike anything I have heard and I may very well not yet fully understand how to properly set them up. I have also lived with the 9" and 12" SME Vs now for 15 or so years, and the 3012R is a new adventure.

I really like both arms, and apart from these videos, when listening live to my system, I am hard pressed to have a preference. I hear the differences, but I like them both a lot and feel very fortunate that I have the opportunity to experience both on the same table with multiple cartridges. I tend to choose the cartridge rather than the arm when listening. I will eventually set one arm for 180-200g LPs, 45s and reissues, and the other for standard LPs.

Are people surprised by the results? Is there interest in more such videos? My hope is that people enjoyed this comparison and perhaps even learned something about these arms that they did not know before. For me, I am now simply having fun listening after almost two years of seriously contemplating getting both of these 12" SME arms on one table, designing and installing the armpod to learn about the differences. Thank you to all who have helped me with your suggestions.

 

[bonzo75]

So, I wrote this "I thought video A had much more authority, control, while the lack of showed in B, and B also had less energy and was rolled off at the top. For the choral it muddied up more, but I found it more natural in the start with only the woman's voice. There was some ambience in the second video."

I think because Tang tried to be oversmart and guess that B was 3012r, my guess is others thought that was the natural one and said B.

Apart from what people prefer from one video, can you please tell us what are the in room differences you heard between the two arms on that track?

 

[PeterA]

So, I wrote this "I thought video A had much more authority, control, while the lack of showed in B, and B also had less energy and was rolled off at the top. For the choral it muddied up more, but I found it more natural in the start with only the woman's voice. There was some ambience in the second video."

I think because Tang tried to be oversmart and guess that B was 3012r, my guess is others thought that was the natural one and said B.

Apart from what people prefer from one video, can you please tell us what are the in room differences you heard between the two arms on that track?

I don't really understand your post, Bonzo. What does Tang have to do with it? Also, I described what I hear in the room listening live to the system in my post #66 above:

"The videos are more or less reflective of what I hear when listening live to my system. The 3012R sounds a tad more open with just a bit more energy in the higher frequencies and it seems to have more "air", while the V-12 seems a bit more composed with a fuller more extended bass. However, the 3012R bass seems more defined and nuanced, and overall more natural."

 

[bonzo75]

I don't really understand your post, Bonzo. What does Tang have to do with it? Also, I described what I hear in the room listening live to the system in my post #66 above:

"The videos are more or less reflective of what I hear when listening live to my system. The 3012R sounds a tad more open with just a bit more energy in the higher frequencies and it seems to have more "air", while the V-12 seems a bit more composed with a fuller more extended bass. However, the 3012R bass seems more defined and nuanced, and overall more natural."

Ok had missed what you wrote, thanks for that.

 

[Tango]

As I said the first time, the B sounds more like my 3012R with MS. I was not oversmart or anything. I just go by what I hear from the video. I have 4 3012R's. None of them ever exhibit more pronounce mid than other arms that I owned. And non of them ever stand out more in term of perceived dynamic and weight when compared to other arms that I owned. These are my rationale. They seem to just have enough dynamic that each pressing has to offer vary by different records. If you don't do a/b with other great arms it will not even be an issue to think. The sound of my system never lack dynamic using the 3012r. Peter revealed that Video B is the V-12. If I have his system I would continue to use the V-12 save money from buying 3012r.

My Master Sig vtf is at 1.4 and I tend to add more cards until the sound is free and little micro contrast of instrument or voice stand out make me smirk while not giving up weight. But this really depends on where your vta starts out.

A good experiment for Peter is to let Al M. record a song without Peter knowing which arm is playing. This will let him choose truly from what he hears. I did this with my tonearm guy switching for me over and over vs SAT and Axiom. Do it often enough you will know what you prefer. Don't you think I just take whatever ddk recommended me. I tried and tried after he left. Just that I ended up with his solution every time. Of course this only show we have the same preferences in sound. Except for the radio shack 10 meter wire he gave me though.

 

[ack]

So it looks like I am the only one who picked Video A over B, and A is the 3012R arm that a lot of people like so much and own. So how come those 3012R owners did not pick that combination? This only tells me that the test is just plain invalid - nothing new from this vantage point. I called Video B bad because it so obviously lacking in dynamic headroom, making it sound flatter. Really hate these MP3 tests, using mediocre microphones to capture anything but a small frequency range

EDIT: Dynamic headroom aside, in terms of pure quality of sound, both videos just plain suck, but feel free to disagree and praise MP3

 

[Tango]

Phone recordings don't lie. The difference is as is. Especially when the owner of the system said the difference presented by the videos partially resemble what he hear in real. Most people just don't want to accept. How we hear could even differ when we go to visit the same room in audio show. But some how when we hear it differently from phone recording we put the first blame on the iPhone . One just have to learn how to use phone recording productively like Peter and Ked said in earlier comments. The reputation and how many people bought the 3012r from ddk's rave has nothing to do with what we hear from the video. I think Peter made it clear his objective comparing the two arms on videos is not to rule which is a better arm but for us to participate showing how we hear things differently prefering what type of sound and also to give us a glimpse of his beautiful system audibly. The videos also introduce me to new music in way that words cannot possibly described. This is also how I like to contribute to the forum introducing records.

 

[bazelio]

Peter, I was fairly certain based on our previous conversations about the sonic differences between your carts, that B was the Grand Cru. And I'm glad it is! I wasn't aware to which arm you'd mounted which cart, and I'm not familiar with the sonic differences between the arms anyhow. But I am glad I was able to pick out the Grand Cru from a phone video comparison. Regarding cart setup, I do think you'd like to own Analog Magik, Peter. I'm not suggesting that you use it to replace your ears. But when performing these types of experiments, it's good to know that you're able to quantitatively minimize setup variables between two arm/cart combos in order to be sure you're better evaluating the variables you actually intend to.

 

[ack]

Peter, I was fairly certain based on our previous conversations of the sonic differences between your carts, that B was the Grand Cru. And I'm glad it is! I wasn't aware to which arm you'd mounted which cart, and I'm not familiar with the sonic differences between the arms anyhow. But I am glad I was able to pick out the Grand Cru from a phone video comparison. Regarding cart setup, I do think you'd like to own Analog Magik, Peter. I'm not suggesting that you use it to replace your ears. But when performing these types of experiments, it's good to know that you're able to quantitatively minimize setup variables between two arm/cart combos in order to be sure you're better evaluating the variables you actually intend to.

They are both the Grand Cru, on two different arms.

 

[bazelio]

They are both the grand cru. Wow


They are both the Grand Cru, on two different arms.

Ah, OK. I didn't read closely, and thought one arm had the standard Master Sig and the other the Grand Cru. But, in that case, then I prefer Grand Cru on the V12 over the 3012R for sure. Unless, of course, the 3012R was just in need of adjustment. The good news is that I now have a feel for what the Grand Cru can sound like under the right conditions for when I'm able to mount mine!

 

[tima]

Are people surprised by the results?

I'm not. Having owned a SME V for many years, I would have been surprised if it was the V-12 arm used in video A. I don't want to say it dampens music, but it is steady in a way that does not encourage resonance or an overly energetic sound. Perhaps thanks to the magnesium armwand. Is that a coloration? I don't know, but that recording seemed suited to it. While air is the breath of energy in acoustic space there was a bit too much reflexion in video A. Though perhaps that could be a virtue on other recordins.

 

[bonzo75]

Phone recordings don't lie.

They do. Or, rather, they change the balance of sound, so the "whole" changes. Phones have a limitation in extension. They can also clip on some frequencies. Also, in a multiway, there are aspects of integration (or lack of) which are more subtle. While the attributes can be heard on a phone, their emphasis changes. So unless someone is looking for them, a listener won't react as naturally to them as he would in room. Energy levels are also different from the main system and the played back system. And you are looking for air and stage from the system in your phone playback, which is quite different from feeling it in the room. When on phone, you need to use both phone experience and gear experience, while in room, you just need to use more of senses, like a holistic sense.

That's why, sometimes you will just find much more disagreement with people on phone recordings than in real. This is similar to what happens at shows. If you take the ones who disagree to the private set up, they will agree more.

I play back what I record and hear in room, and certain things are representative and certain ones are not.

Also, we compared iphone 8+ and Samsung 10+ recordings of Mani's system. the iPhone was more organic and involving, and the Samsung sounded very clean and less involving. It's the same system. This adds a whole layer of misunderstanding to directly listening to the system

The most subtle effects are less pronounced on the phone, and sometimes the bad ones can be more pronounced. Given that a lot of hifi is about getting past the weakness, this can change balance. You might have focused on the weakness less in room, you might focus more on the phone. Again, this happens at shows too

Imo, phone recordings should be used as notes to convey what the listener wants to. They make more sense than words as they leave less to the writing skill/reading comprehension and go well with it. The flip side is the reader might ignore what the person sending the video is trying to say and use his own golden ear to use the phone recording as final.

 

[bonzo75]

As I said the first time, the B sounds more like my 3012R with MS. I was not oversmart or anything. I just go by what I hear from the video. I have 4 3012R's. None of them ever exhibit more pronounce mid than other arms that I owned.

It is not possible to guess which is which over a video sample of one if you don't know both components. You only knew 3012r.

And, the observation I made was that A was not overpronounced, but B was lacking stuff (from my previous post""I thought video A had much more authority, control, while the lack of showed in B, and B also had less energy and was rolled off at the top. For the choral it muddied up more"). Of course if you disagree it was lacking stuff, then you should replace SME 3012r with SME V-12

 

[bonzo75]

They do. Or, rather, they change the balance of sound, so the "whole" changes. Phones have a limitation in extension. They can also clip on some frequencies. Also, in a multiway, there are aspects of integration (or lack of) which are more subtle. While the attributes can be heard on a phone, their emphasis changes. So unless someone is looking for them, a listener won't react as naturally to them as he would in room. Energy levels are also different from the main system and the played back system. And you are looking for air and stage from the system in your phone playback, which is quite different from feeling it in the room. When on phone, you need to use both phone experience and gear experience, while in room, you just need to use more of senses, like a holistic sense.

That's why, sometimes you will just find much more disagreement with people on phone recordings than in real. This is similar to what happens at shows. If you take the ones who disagree to the private set up, they will agree more.

I play back what I record and hear in room, and certain things are representative and certain ones are not.

Also, we compared iphone 8+ and Samsung 10+ recordings of Mani's system. the iPhone was more organic and involving, and the Samsung sounded very clean and less involving. It's the same system. This adds a whole layer of misunderstanding to directly listening to the system

The most subtle effects are less pronounced on the phone, and sometimes the bad ones can be more pronounced. Given that a lot of hifi is about getting past the weakness, this can change balance. You might have focused on the weakness less in room, you might focus more on the phone. Again, this happens at shows too

Imo, phone recordings should be used as notes to convey what the listener wants to. They make more sense than words as they leave less to the writing skill/reading comprehension and go well with it. The flip side is the reader might ignore what the person sending the video is trying to say and use his own golden ear to use the phone recording as final.

In short, you are listening to a live performance recorded by a professional over your Cessaro system, and your senses are trying to give you a feeling of live.

Now you are asking someone to listen to the Cessaros through headphones and get a sense of Cessaros giving a sense of live. This complicates things.

Pro recordings can sound much better, though if in room aspect is lost, realism and ability to relate to the system goes away

 

[PeterA]

I received this email from a friend in New Zealand after I sent him a link to this thread. It is copied here with his permission. He has a lot of experience with these two SME tonearms. I find his observations about the videos through WBF versus YouTube quite interesting.


Hi Peter,

Just sat down to check my emails when yours came through.

It’s very interesting because there are 4 videos to compare.

You posted/linked A & B on WBF
You also posted A & B on Youtube

The videos on Youtube appear to be more transparent ( higher volume maybe ??? ).
Tape hiss and noise floor of the recording are much more apparent when played via the Youtube copies directly.

My initial impressions from WBF were -

A is more saturated, the female vocal in particular presents larger and more vibrant, a little technicoloured like a vintage FR7 cartridge.

By comparison on B the female vocal appears less vibrant, less coloured, but perhaps slightly “clipped”, as if the VTA might be a little too high.
On A the male voices are again a little richer, but more homogenised, with less acoustic.

The male voices are much better resolved on B. You can hear their chests and throats more clearly and the acoustic space around the male vocals appears much better delineated on B.
The recording venue acoustics appear more resolved with B.

If I was a betting man I would guess A is the 3012R and B is the V12 based on WBF audition.

Now if you go to youtube and compare A to A and B to B, B becomes more like A on youtube – that is the female vocal on B has more brilliance via youtube than the same clip on WBF.
The 2 recordings A & B when played directly from youtube are much closer in tonal balance.

I am not up with digital/MP3 etc but it almosts sounds like B is compromised when played through WBF.

I listened to them on standard mac air buds & mac air computer.

Be interested in your feedback.

By the way the best ears on Audiogon are Frogman – a professional musician – we spent quite a time doing this exercise on a thread started by Halcro for cartridge comparisons.

Hope you are well,

Nick