Too Late For Analog?

[silviajulieta]

Dear Phelonius Ponk: +++++ " but I can speak to how I perceive analog distortions, though I'm talking about vinyl, not professional analog recordings. I hear a high noise floor, limited dynamic peaks (especially when a lot of bass is involved), imprecise imaging and a thickness in the midrange. It doesn't matter what I hear, though. The believers will just say I haven't heard the right deck, cartridge or disc yet, and I can't argue with that; " +++++

I assume that you like almost all of us try ( on each one audio system ) to mimic what is on the recording.

How do you know that what is in the recording is what you heard through your CDP? how do you know that that digital mastering is " perfect " and honor what is in the recording?, in the other side: how do you know that what you are hearing through LP is not what is in the recording because you heard " distortions " that you don't heard on your CDP counterpart? how do you know which is right? how do you decide that the CD or LP is the right one? ( please no headphones here. ). How do you know that that " analog thickness midrange " does not exist in the recording? how?, even how do you know that the sound you perceive is " true " and not a " distorted " ears?

I know that you will comeback with some answers about but I'm sure too that you will not " move " not a single " angstrom " against digital or in favor of analog and with that kind of attitude is almost impossible to have a mature dialog.

Here in México people say that: " there is no worst deaf person that that that does not want to hear ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear Frantz: Trying to own a reference CDP a friend of mine and I decide ( a few years ago ) to design a PC based CDP using Lynx and RME soundcards ( we tested others and always comeback to those ones. ) where we made in deep soundcard modifications in its analog stages and by-passing several digital/analog stages that were not in use for our CDP project.

Through those modifications I learn that tehre are at least two " Aquiles heels " on those sound cards: we found that in the digital domain the signal of left channel pass through ( if I remember, but it is not important the number. ) six different stages and when we think the same will be for the right channel we found that it is not because in this channel the signal pass only through five stages: seems to me that because in the digital domain we are working with 0s and 1s then it does not matters and I think it matters.
The other " weak heel " is on the analog circuit design that IMHO is really poor or at least there are a better way to go for better quality performance.

I don't know if this could happen at Apogee or Sony profesional digital recording level but maybe it is happening in the analog circuit designs.

It is my believe that even the today CD quality performance can be improved if the recording industry and the CDP manufacturers take care more in deep the analog circuits design along better CDP transports.

A few months ago I made a comparison with two SOTA CDP ( multi-box/separates types $$$$$. ) against one " humble " modified ( analog circuit and power supply. ) Denon I own and the SOTA ones can't beat the Denon in clear way.

These both experiences tell me that not all is already said it about CD and of course with other high native sampling digital sources like DVDA/SACD that unfortunately are just " dead ".

IMHO the world is on " digital hands " ( I love evolution ) if the " digital hands " makes the right decisions for we all customers that love the MUSIC and that loves " live " the MUSIC and not only hear it.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Dear Phelonius Ponk: +++++ " but I can speak to how I perceive analog distortions, though I'm talking about vinyl, not professional analog recordings. I hear a high noise floor, limited dynamic peaks (especially when a lot of bass is involved), imprecise imaging and a thickness in the midrange. It doesn't matter what I hear, though. The believers will just say I haven't heard the right deck, cartridge or disc yet, and I can't argue with that; " +++++

I assume that you like almost all of us try ( on each one audio system ) to mimic what is on the recording.

How do you know that what is in the recording is what you heard through your CDP? how do you know that that digital mastering is " perfect " and honor what is in the recording?, in the other side: how do you know that what you are hearing through LP is not what is in the recording because you heard " distortions " that you don't heard on your CDP counterpart? how do you know which is right? how do you decide that the CD or LP is the right one? ( please no headphones here. ). How do you know that that " analog thickness midrange " does not exist in the recording? how?, even how do you know that the sound you perceive is " true " and not a " distorted " ears?

I know that you will comeback with some answers about but I'm sure too that you will not " move " not a single " angstrom " against digital or in favor of analog and with that kind of attitude is almost impossible to have a mature dialog.

Here in México people say that: " there is no worst deaf person that that that does not want to hear ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Well, I don't know, Raul. No one does unless they can compare the master to the media on the same system. I've had the opportunity to compare masters to CDs, but not to vinyl. But what I hear in vinyl is consistent, and it is consistent with the measurements. I trust my ears, and that trust is confirmed. Of course none of that means that vinyl can't sound good, it can. But given the same master, I prefer digital. It's as simple as that.

P

 

[Gregadd]

With all due respect P. What is your position? Is digital your personal preference? Is it because you have scientific proof that digital is better ? Or do you just like it better? Do have scientific proof that vinyl is hopelessly inferior to digital? Or is that you just don't like vinyl. I think your posts indicate you jump back and forth between these positions as the situation warrants.
Mybe you could put your position in your signature line.

 

[mep]

What strikes me funny (but not ha-ha funny) is that even though Steve closed the thread I started (Analog Apologist) that the same debate is still raging on in other threads like this one. It seems this forum has descended into an analog vs. digital war with neither side wanting to concede any ground. All of this discussion just seems to expose the raw nerves that are barely below the surface between people who purport to love the same thing which is music. I find it all mildly amusing. My take away from all of these debates or exchange of ideas is that digital lovers like to use science and measurements to justify their love of digital and use those against analog lovers who believe in the truth of what they hear vice what the measurements and science tell us we should hear,

In summary, Steve, you may have closed the thread I started, but you haven't killed the debate. It is still raging on.

 

[amirm]

mep, we closed the other thread because the level of complaints and emotions as communicated to us privately was hitting the roof. It was uncomfortable move by all of us as we do not like to close threads in this forum but rather rely on professional behavior from members to keep things calm.

We are letting this one go because we are not hearing the tense emotions we heard on the other. I hope we can keep it at the level it is and not force us to close yet another thread. I like to encourage people as you have to think of what is it that they are saying that is new and different. Just arguing wastes your time and doesn't benefit anyone. Take note that neither I nor Steve are posting here as we know not to do that when we have nothing useful to say .

 

[JackD201]

The debate will never end but has become more civil though. That's at least a good start.

 

[Steve williams]

The debate will never end but has become more civil though. That's at least a good start.

I have always stated here that debate is good as long as it's civil.

The reality is one side will never convince the other that theirs is the better format.

JackD and others however have iterated however (to which I also agree) that it is all about the music and for many of us we enjoy both formats for that very reason.

And with that I would like to now suggest that we get back on topic and answer Brian's original question. I know Brian and his system and have heard it several times. He is a bright man and doesn't need anyone talking measurements. That was not the intent of his question.

Any further posts here should address only that

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I got into this hobby nearly 40 years ago, and for one reason only. I love music and I wanted to hear it often, repeatedly and on something that was affordable, yet still reproduced said music in a more than acceptable fashion. Certainly better than the sound I heard from my Dad's "Baycrest" console.

It was the sixties and new bands were exploding onto the scene almost daily. To this day I still beleive it was the most exciting time for music lovers everywhere, and it hasn't been duplicated since. Given the time period, vinyl was my only choice. I quickly discovered that this was a format that needed to be delicately handled and taken extreme care of. As such, I have many, many LP's from that period that are still of very good quality and very listenable. My collection sits at several thousand LP's, and it is still my primary choice for music playback.

When CD came on the scene( I have never, ever bought music on tape), I was excited and quite impressed with this new format. I bought a CDP and started buying content for it. Over the years, and with the demise of vinyl, my collection started to grow and now included recordings that were only released in said format. I bought about 400 CD's in total during the next 10 or so years.

I am not ashamed to say that I play both formats and do not nit-pick to death the performance of them. Instead I just enjoy the music. Some albums are poorly recorded to be sure, but since it's the only version I have and I enjoy the music itself, they still get played. I don't snub my nose at them. This holds true for both formats.

I like CD because of the convenience factor more than anything, and rarely do I seek out better recordings. The reason for this is simple, I don't use CD for critical listening. On the other hand, I prefer vinyl because of its requirement for hands-on interaction. This is a hugely satisfying and appealing side benefit of the format for me, and because of said interaction vinyl is my preferred choice for critical listening. I hope this makes sense to you?

In the end I am able to enjoy both formats for what they give me, and I am always hesitant to choose a preference for one over the other. Maybe this is all due to my rather simplistic take on things. I love music and I want to listen to it as often as I can, and I hope that with each playback regardless of format, it brings a smile to my face. For me it's all about the music.

John

 

[JackD201]

Lucky you John, you got to keep your LP collection. Mine evaporated as I hastily rebuilt my collection on CD format. I jumped, in hindsight, because I actually never knew how to set up my humble little technics SL-1200 properly. I have a SL-1210 now fitted with an Ortofon cart and I was able to get a chunk of the 80's records I had once had. Now armed with more knowledge I truly regret letting my LPs go. Funny thing is that I have quite a few of those LPs (mostly Pop, New Wave) that actually sound better with a simple MM cart and DD table than they do with my main table.

Here's one for Brian who I believe after going straight into the wall is having an analog free blast.

If there are enough LPs that you want but are unavailable in other formats, go for it!!!

By the way I was able to score The Cranberries - Everybody's Doing it LP off of Discogs. You might want to check it out. The pressing was decent.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I welcome discussions. They advance knowledge. It is important that one revises its position from time to time. Through discussions and a willingness to open my mind I went from staunch analog defender to digital advocate.

I would like to think that through discussions, debate and experimentation one can not only change one's mind but also derive more enjoyment from one's systems.

The discussion has moved toward an analog vs Digital debate true but the original question suggests such debate. The operative words are "Too late".
I have enjoyed analog at a very elevated levels. My last TT (Basis), Arm (graham), Cartridge ( Koetsu and Lyra) were far from middle of the road. I can understand that some prefer analog and I am sympathetic to the fact that it is very difficult to explain in words why. It remains however that, whether we want to acknowledge it or not, there are objective metrics. They may not be sufficient at times but remain very useful most of the time. By these very metrics we can easily explain the superiority of R2R over its analog cousin the LP .. I will leave the inference to the collective ...

To answer the original question. If one is interested in the Treasure-hunt that analog these days is, then by all means go for it. I am so pleased to see that one can acquire a serious R2R at less than 2K that will "smoke" the best TTs (regardless of price) .. Software remain elusive and very quickly onerous for a few cuts whose sonics maybe great but whose content, genre and quality of play could be said to be limited or at the very least not to everyone's liking.. One could go for a TT rig and be prepared to pay much more, a lot more and a lot more aggravation... and that is where the digital vs analog debate starts over because CD or better Redbook through the newest DACs has gotten that kind of close ... and there is 24/96 ...HRx and higher rates on the Horizon ,,,

Likely my last post in this thread

 

[silviajulieta]

I am interested in opinions from the learned! What would you do if you were in my shoes? I am a 40 yo music lover that has tried over the past 4 years to create a state of the art system. I am too young to have grown up with vinyl, thus I have no records. Would you start investing in vinyl playback at this juncture, given that digital appears to be the future. A person in this forum has kept me out of vinyl thus far for a variety of reasons. Oneobgyn and I have both saved a lot of money because of him. I would be curious to hear other's take on the potential downsides of "going vinyl". I will list a few: expense of TT set up, expense of source material, lack of source material, reliability issues, record cleaning, etc. Also, is current music recorded in analog these days, or is it recorded digitally and transferred to analog. Thanks for your comments.

Current system Wilson Alexandria X2 S2, Boulder 2060, 2010, MBL 1621A and Boulder 2020 DAC

Dear Bflowers: Like a music lover IMHO always can be interesting to try different music sources ( by different reasons or just to hear it. ) other that what we own.
From this point of view the answer is go a head with the analog ( LP ) source alternative.

However there are some " areas " where you be aware before that:
- which kind of music do you like and which of that music exist ( in an easy find way ) in LP? can you find enough and good software for you analog rig?
- I assume that you want an analog rig ( TT/tonearm/cartridges/Phono stage/cleaning machine/TT plattform/cables/etc, etc. ) where you can enjoy the music at the top of or near the top what LP can shows and this means know how ( between other things: the relative and real importance ( the why's. ) of each analog link in the final quality performance analog chain. ) to make the lesser mistakes when choosing every single link in that analog chain to achieve " perfect " synergy.
- if you need the right knowledge ( in preference not the one that could comes from an audio item seller ) for choosing the whole analog chain and due that the whole analog hardaware is a mechanical one you need an in deep knowlege to make the right set up over each link and over the analog chain, this is not an easy task and needs IMHO: experts.
- the LP is not a " plug&play " source you need almost every day take care for the whole set up be right on target and this means know how too. Analog/LP operation never is an easy task and always time consuming if you want to be at the " top ".
- there is a time ( that can be more or less long. ) for you can learn and take the LP source " operation " knowledge. Patience is always welcome here.
- yes you have to mantain clean the LPs but not only that the cartridges needs day by day maintenance and many other things that you must learn through the time.
- phono cartridges are delicate and even in " experts hands " time to time happen accidents and cantilever/stylus goes broken. Yes, IMHO this is part of the analog source " day by day " work.
-even if you solve the back " points " and due that you are hearing only digital format exist the possibility that you don't like the LP alternative, so maybe could be important that you can have a whole analog rig in your system and hear it for a while before go a head.

Obviously that IMHO you need the right analog knowledge person to help you in that new advanture.

Is it worth to do it due " given that digital appears to be the future " ?

With the kind of money you have and if you have the time to do it then IMHO you and only you have the right answer to that question.

For me that I own an analog rig ( as digital too. ) and that have more or less know how on the subject and that already own the software the answer is: worth to try it.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[silviajulieta]

Well, I don't know, Raul. No one does unless they can compare the master to the media on the same system. I've had the opportunity to compare masters to CDs, but not to vinyl. But what I hear in vinyl is consistent, and it is consistent with the measurements. I trust my ears, and that trust is confirmed. Of course none of that means that vinyl can't sound good, it can. But given the same master, I prefer digital. It's as simple as that.

P

Dear Phelonious Ponk: Usually how many week or month hours do you " use " to hear live music and usually with which kind of music? Thank you in advance.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

With all due respect P. What is your position? Is digital your personal preference? Is it because you have scientific proof that digital is better ? Or do you just like it better? Do have scientific proof that vinyl is hopelessly inferior to digital? Or is that you just don't like vinyl. I think your posts indicate you jump back and forth between these positions as the situation warrants.
Mybe you could put your position in your signature line.

I'm just trying to answer Raul's question, Reginald, which in this case seemed to be about perceptions. My position is that the common 16/44.1 file of the same master has lower noise, lower distortion, flatter frequency response and greater dynamic range than the same master on vinyl. There is plenty of data out there to support that position, but is it proof? Not if you don't accept the validity of the data. That's the objective part. The subjective part is what I personally hear in good vinyl systems and in good digital systems and that, to my ears, the listening confirms all of the above. MHO. YMMV. Peace.

The answer to that, at least from some of the member/mods around here, seems to be that if that's what I hear, I'm not hearing properly, that I haven't heard the right disc, the right table, the right room, the right recording. My opinion, my disagreement, is dismissed by these folks as my inability to gain the proper experience in my 40 years as a musician, audiophile and sometime audio industry employee.

Which means you don't think I'm due much respect at all, as long as I continue to disagree with you.

P

 

[silviajulieta]

I have always stated here that debate is good as long as it's civil.

The reality is one side will never convince the other that theirs is the better format.

JackD and others however have iterated however (to which I also agree) that it is all about the music and for many of us we enjoy both formats for that very reason.

And with that I would like to now suggest that we get back on topic and answer Brian's original question. I know Brian and his system and have heard it several times. He is a bright man and doesn't need anyone talking measurements. That was not the intent of his question.

Any further posts here should address only that

Dear Steve: I agree that a debate always must be civil.

I'm new in this forum and my concept on a free subject thread posts forum is different from yours that like/want to " guide " a thread like in this one.

With all respect for me a forum ( a internet forum. ) is a place where any one that is reading it could learn even with out participation and even if who start the thread has no main interest on other co-related subjects. Try to have something like a " strait jacket " IMHO can't help the forum. IMHO the right person to say " stop " is who start the thread. I think we all are mature and adult persons that already pass through a " kindergarden ", don't you think?

Only a thought.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[Steve williams]

great suggestion and certainly theory many times is better than fact only because we have had several threads here recently that became like a train wreck

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Dear Phelonious Ponk: Usually how many week or month hours do you " use " to hear live music and usually with which kind of music? Thank you in advance.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Raul,

I was a working semi-pro musician for 40 years. I've heard and participated in the creation of live music in many formats in clubs, concert halls, living rooms, porches and rehearsal rooms. I've even carried the guitar into the bathroom with me a few times. That is one of the few reasons why I bother to respond to some of the absurdities spoken in these debates. One recent example, I don't remember which thread or poster, was (and I paraphrase) that digital recordings of cymbals are unlistenable. I've probably logged as many hours standing within reach of those cymbals as most audiophiles have spent listening to recordings of them.

Tell me you like vinyl better. Tell me it is warm, smooth, musical, euphonic, delicious, whatever adjective works for you, and that you couldn't live without it. I will congratulate you on your bliss. But please don't tell me that it captures the complex waveform and challenging transient response of a ride cymbal better than digital. I know exactly what the real thing sounds like, in the ear and through a wide variety of microphones. I can say, with confidence, that is utter nonsense.

P

 

[silviajulieta]

I am interested in opinions from the learned! What would you do if you were in my shoes? I am a 40 yo music lover that has tried over the past 4 years to create a state of the art system. I am too young to have grown up with vinyl, thus I have no records. Would you start investing in vinyl playback at this juncture, given that digital appears to be the future. A person in this forum has kept me out of vinyl thus far for a variety of reasons. Oneobgyn and I have both saved a lot of money because of him. I would be curious to hear other's take on the potential downsides of "going vinyl". I will list a few: expense of TT set up, expense of source material, lack of source material, reliability issues, record cleaning, etc. Also, is current music recorded in analog these days, or is it recorded digitally and transferred to analog. Thanks for your comments.

Current system Wilson Alexandria X2 S2, Boulder 2060, 2010, MBL 1621A and Boulder 2020 DAC

Dear BFlowers: My opinion on my last post was not to " intimidate " in any way but for you can have an " idea " of what's mean analog/LPs especially because you own a very high resolution system where every single mistake/error on the analog set up will be hear/heard by you ( no place to hidden. ) and can give you a " false " idea of analog quality performance.

In the other side today your " ears " and home system set up is and match/cover the specific needs of that digital format, you are " digital " equalized and I think that you will need a short desintoxify time before you can really appreciate how great the analog alternative is and its main differences with what you are accustom to. Maybe even with the analog alternative you will have to modified the speakers room place and many other " things " to make honor to analog for its shows at its best.

No, you don't need a super SOTA analog gear but a decent one and first rate set up. Money always help but the main name of the game IMHO is: deep right and precise know how.

Additional to all those " factors " you need to be prepared to accept trade-offs ( nothing is prefect. ) and define which ones you could accept and which ones no.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Raul,

I love your sign-off...."enjoy the music"! For what it's worth, regardless of what systems I have owned in the past, own currently and might own tomorrow.....like you I "enjoy the music".

John

 

[Mike Lavigne]

P,

on the narrow subject of respect.

speaking only for myself; as i mentioned in a previous thread; one's bluster needs to be matched by one's transparency. every other serious participant in this discussion is well known to this community. is it such as surprise to you that this is an issue?

you complain about lack of respect.

The answer to that, at least from some of the member/mods around here, seems to be that if that's what I hear, I'm not hearing properly, that I haven't heard the right disc, the right table, the right room, the right recording. My opinion, my disagreement, is dismissed by these folks as my inability to gain the proper experience in my 40 years as a musician, audiophile and sometime audio industry employee.

Which means you don't think I'm due much respect at all, as long as I continue to disagree with you.

P

if you want to continue to spout stuff;

tell us who you are, where you live, specifically what gear you listened to that caused you to form your opinions. in other words; make a case about the specific experiences that support your generalizations. and be transparent.

one might conclude that you must have something to hide.

there are others who agree with you to some degree; but they are not hiding behind a moniker; they admit to what they have not done and respect likely limits to their experience. they may not back down either but are transparent about themselves. idea exchange happens without rancor. when someone drops out of the sky and digs in without being open then no trust is offered.

the good old world wide web makes anyone pretty brave to write anything from behind the safety of their keyboard.

either open up....or.....continue to whine about not being respected...or....back off on the degree of certainty of your positions.

those are the choices.

people might (probably do many times) think i'm full of crap; but i'm an open book on numerous forums. i have nothing to hide. my moniker is my name. i answer any specific question about my experience with the facts as i see them. then they decide whether my perspective may have value or not. there is no mystery.

again; i only speak for myself and my perspective on how you are being viewed. and i'll add that i'm not questioning your intent; only your approach as it pertains to the credibility of the basis for the positions you take.

you brought this subject up and i'm trying to answer your specific concern on the narrow issue of respect. only you can determine whether the respect of a few analog lovers is even important.

Mike Lavigne