Tubes, different makers, different types...but what are your preferences?

[Mendel]

The Melz 1578 OTK hole plates have out of this world sonics; wide and deep soundstage, excellent low-end extension, smooth highs, and a holographic yet realistic presentation. Mine are from 1980 and have some noise, specifically they don't provide a black background.
I've had several failures with these tubes after burn-in. I purchased 3 pair from a Russian dealer who was recommended to me and 3 tubes started crackling. I found out that by 1980, quality control was poor and the pins had loose connections with the internals.

@Mendel
Have you had any issues with your 1578's and do you know what year they are?
(We may have discussed this before, but memory fades)

Hi Lowrider75:
Not sure what year my 1578 are. I have 4 of them, three with the small “flying saucer” getters and one with an oversized halo getter. One of them has some kind of short, it works fine but then stops working, a little jiggle and it lights up again. Pretty much unusable. The others definitely have a little more noise than some other 6SN7 that I have, but not a big issue when they are used as drivers.
I like the sound of them, big and bold with a very large soundstage. But they never seem to last more than a couple of days in my amp. I think it comes down to the treble. They just seem to have much more treble energy than other 6SN7s. Initially this sounds very impressive, it expands the soundstage and gives music a crisp, vibrant energy. But after a while it just seems unnatural to me. And my electrostatic speakers can use all the treble they can get.
Lately I have been shifting to “warmer” sounding tubes. For example, in the past I have found the RCA VT-231 Grey glass and RCA 5692 warmer than life and somewhat coloured. But these tubes recently followed the 1578 in my amp and they just sound right to me. The 5692 seems slightly more resolving, the VT-231 more extended at the frequency extremes. I find the RCA VT-231 to have deeper bass and a fuller “power range” than the 1578. Treble seem nicely extended, but lower treble is less pronounced that 1578. They have been in the amp for the last two weeks, that’s a long time for me!
Of course this is all very equipment and listener dependent. Lots of great 6SN7s types out there.

 

[Lowrider75]

Hi Lowrider75:
Not sure what year my 1578 are. I have 4 of them, three with the small “flying saucer” getters and one with an oversized halo getter. One of them has some kind of short, it works fine but then stops working, a little jiggle and it lights up again. Pretty much unusable. The others definitely have a little more noise than some other 6SN7 that I have, but not a big issue when they are used as drivers.
I like the sound of them, big and bold with a very large soundstage. But they never seem to last more than a couple of days in my amp. I think it comes down to the treble. They just seem to have much more treble energy than other 6SN7s. Initially this sounds very impressive, it expands the soundstage and gives music a crisp, vibrant energy. But after a while it just seems unnatural to me. And my electrostatic speakers can use all the treble they can get.
Lately I have been shifting to “warmer” sounding tubes. For example, in the past I have found the RCA VT-231 Grey glass and RCA 5692 warmer than life and somewhat coloured. But these tubes recently followed the 1578 in my amp and they just sound right to me. The 5692 seems slightly more resolving, the VT-231 more extended at the frequency extremes. I find the RCA VT-231 to have deeper bass and a fuller “power range” than the 1578. Treble seem nicely extended, but lower treble is less pronounced that 1578. They have been in the amp for the last two weeks, that’s a long time for me!
Of course this is all very equipment and listener dependent. Lots of great 6SN7s types out there.

Yes, there are many great 6SN7s, it just takes a little research.
RCA VT-231 is one of my favs, but now I'm seeking neutrality, so using various 1940's and 50s Sylvanias. I have one good pair of Melz left but I shelved it to bring down the noise floor. I've paired some 1940's Ken Rad with Sylvania VT-231's in my amp and am really enjoying them.
I have my all time favorite in my preamp, T-S roundplate WWII issue.

 

[robolton]

Sylvania JAN-CHS 6SN7GT VT-231 - 1943 | Sylvania JAN-CHS 6SN7WGT - 1955 | Sylvania JAN-CHS 6SN7W - 1945

 

[robolton]

and if that fails just pick something and roll with it ...

​

 

[Mendel]

Sylvania 6SN7 tube porn! I can’t resist, here is a chronological selection of some of my favourites.
Left to right:
JAN-CHS 6SN7 W, JAN-CHS VT-231, 6SN7GT 1950 2 -hole plate, JAN-CHS 6SN7GT 1952 3-hole plate “Badboy”, JAN-CHS 6SN7 WGT 1953 brown base, 6SN7 GTA 1953 “tear drop” flashing , 6SN7 GTA 1955, 6SN7 GTB yellow label 1960, JAN-CHS 6SN7 WGTA 1964

 

[robolton]

Nice Mendel! I think you got the complete collection ...

Sylvania 6SN7W
Sylvania VT-231
Sylvania Yellow Label 6SN7GTB
Sylvania 6SN7GT / WGT / GTA / WGTA / GTB

 

[Music and Wine]

Hello All

what tubes and makes you enjoy the most

very difficult,in is very very much system dependent and your room acoustics and your music and taste.Every manufacturer had or has a typical house sound and some manufacturer made many different types of the same tube and it can be a pain and sometimes impossible too distinguish between them.Especially if the data code is wiped off.

I personally believe every manufacturer made some great tubes,but to pick the best out is not that easy.Please only believe your own ears.I noticed that some tube dealers in the US,got every year a new best ever tube and then I read the comments in some forums and then the people rave about the new treasures they found.They not super special tubes,or something that was hidden for 50 years and nobody ever seen them or new about them,the old tube people new about them but were not interested in them.

I see that some Tube vendors think the S of the Telefunken ECC801S or 802S or 803S is for Selected.Yes these tubes were highly selected but the S stand for “Spanngitter” german word for frame grid .I also see lot’s of people think that frame grid is something like a lost technology only Telefunken used. No, frame grid tubes were made by many manufacturers and is not something super special.These tubes were more difficult to make and cost more,yes.

In my current systems I use a few different tubes,what are the but ,depends on my mood.I got some favourites but that changes almost daily,depends on the music I listen to.

My preamp can use any 9a pin small signal tube,like 12bh7,12au7,6211,5965,12av7,6072,6414,E80CC,E180CC ,12at7 or 5751 or 12ax7 and the other tubes are all different 6SN7,or 7n7 or 6f8g with adapter
My one power amp uses 12ax7 and 12 au7 and 17jn7 output tube and my other power amp uses 6SN7 and 300b and as output tube WE212 and my integrated single ended amp uses 6072 and 5687 and 211 tubes.
Just one the most used tubes,

my favorite,not any ranking ,they all are good in there own right.12au7
Amperex 7316 long and short plate,see comments below.Heerlen,Holland
Amperex Long plate same construction as 7316 and sound the same to me,from the late 1950th,D getter foil strip.Very muical,from top to bottom ,it does everything just right.Made in Heerlen Holland
Siemens &Halske ECC82 chrome plate,2or 3 mica,the also sound very much the same,very clear superb dynamics,very detailed,but not hard.Made by Siemens &Halske,Munich
Siemens &Halske 5814a long plate,massive dynamics with the best bass of all 12au7 tubes,very linear,great detail,also on the more leaner clear side ,not thin ,just very fast and detailed.Made by Siemens &Halske Munich
Valvo 6067,maybe even more balanced than the Amperex 7316 long plate,this tube was not made by Valvo but Siemens &Halske in Munich,Germany.You will fall in love again,it is super musical but detailed and open and flesh out.one of the best.
Valvo long plate ,made by Valvo in Hamburg .Lovely,a German tube with real flesh and body but with great speed and detail and very open.lovely
Siemens &HalskeE82cc,made in Munich Germany.The dynamics monster,very quiet tube,very detailed,super fast,the F1 tube,like most Siemens or Telefunken tubes very detailed and open and clear but great ulta deep and divined bass.Great if you love dynamics and clarity
Telefunken ECC82,very detailed tube,,completely different to Telefunken ECC802S.Detailed and superb separation of instruments or voices.Linear in the middle and top frequencies but a small hump at the bottom,just gives the sound some foundation.Made by Telefunken in Berlin,Germany
Telefunken ECC802S,very expensive as most Telefunken are unfortunately,made by Telefunken,Ulm ,Germany .As linear as a laser leam,super detailed,very fast,very open.Very deep bass but not rich,just very accurate.It is not a tube for everyone or any system.I’ve got a few pairs,but hardly use them,sometimes they are just too neutral and too accurate.Sounds strange,I know,just a system is the combination off all the tubes in total.
Raytheon 12au7 long blackplates,lovely tube,it has got something special,call it timing ,they just suck im into the music.One of my favorite .
Mullards,very difficult one,I got the same love hate relationship too Telefunken and Mullards.The early long plates are great,but sometimes too dark and not detailed enough and not open enough on top,exactly the opposite as the Telefunken.I got 9 different ones,they all sound little different,but they got a typical Mullard house sound,rich full.In the right system they can be great.For me they too coloured,please don’t hang me for it.Everybody can have an option,if it is correct is another matter completely.I just tried the M10 ,yellow label,today and after 30 minutes I took them out.Many people love them and it can be a great tube,but not something I prefer in my system right now.

well ,just a short list off 12au7 /ECC82 I enjoy,there are some more lovely tubes

Just sweet and short on the 6SN7.
The best,what do you expect.TungSol round/ oval plate/ VT 231.Does everything just perfect.The inner detail is fantastic,it is fast and open on top but lovely fleshed out.The bass is good.It is the combination,of bass ,mid and high frequencies,they all are together and nothing stands out.It is hard to beat.In my preamp they are just perfect,in my one power amp they got sometimes on some music some slight sibilants and I tried 4 different pairs and in that application,they are great but I use a different 6SN7/ alike tube
Raytheon 6SN7 flat ribbed plates,support pins.very fast,transparent,very detailed,very good bass,not rich,but creamy.This is the tube I use today
Russian 1578,great tube,fast detailed,great bass,very clear,very slightly shut in on top,in my preamp but not in my big single ended tube power amp.One of the best
Hytron,the Formula 1 racing tube,very fast and detailed,good bass ,but not big and powerful but accurate.If Telefunken ever made a 6SN7,that would sound like this Hytron.Well,here it comes,many people believe Telefunken made a 6SN7,but no,they never did.They sold some under the Telefunken name,but they were rebranded,some very good from Sweden and some somewhere from Eastern Europe and they were terrible.The Hytron is a great 6SN7
KenRad VT231.Lovely tube,superb bass,the best 6SN7 bass,good midrange,and good open high frequencies,maybe not as detailed as the very very best but what a party animal.The bass is earth shattering.Lovely
Sylvania 6SN7W,black bass or metal bass.Very powerful sound ,very forward.Very exiting.Bass is rich and full,midrange is full and rich and the top is open,but it maybe lacks the last refinement and detail.Also very expensive these days and not the most reliable tube.Had already 3 tubes that died on me.
If you are good with a soldering Iron,the best 6SN7 are actually the 6f8g but don’t use an adapter but rewire the tube socket to fit the 6F8G tube pins and add a tube cap.They are electrical the same as 6SN7 but got a different pinout and a tube cap.The difference between a adapter and to rewire the tube socket is big.The adapter takes a lot of transparency away and detail.The best 6F8G are TungSol round or flat ribbed plates,I prefer the flat plate one and the KenRad round and oval plates tubes.These tubes are fresher livelier than the 6SN7 and more open on top.The centure of gravity is slightly high than the 6SN7,the 6SN7 are fuller and richer and the 6f8g are faster and more detailed.

Enough for one day
Another day I will give my opinion on 12at7 and 12ax7 and 300b and 211 and 212 and rectifying tubes.





All manufacturer made great tubes.Just try and find the ones you like. The best tube or manufacturer does not exist,the best tube is the one you like the most,full stop.
Cheers and keep on rolling

 

[Sablon Audio]

@Music and Wine - thanks for sharing that insightful post. This comes at a great time for me as I am building out my system with equipment using 12au7 / 12at7 / 6sn7. The last sentence about satisfying personal tastes is prescient advice.

My general approach towards choosing tubes is based around the following prejudices:

- earlier production is generally better
- military/industrial variants are quieter
- long plates are a good thing if your equipment can handle the heater current draw (eg e80cc types)
- lower gain models (eg 5814 / 5751 etc) have their merits
- i don’t buy the hype (especially around Mullard…)
- stylistically I prefer Dutch production as giving a great overall balance

I’m presently loving the pinched waist Dario branded 5965 (12at7 D getter variant) in my Riviera Levante so much that I haven’t bothered to install the gec a2900 / brimar 6060 yellow / valvo 6201 I recently bought.…

 

[Music and Wine]

Hallo Sablon Audio

The gec a2900 is a beast,lovely tube,sounds extremely powerful.The Brimar 6060 yellow T from the late 1950th is also great.These two are the best British 12at7 and sound similar.Rich powerful bottom and clear and open top.Nothing like most Mullards.

I agree,you can get great tubes for much less,you do not need these hyped up expensive tubes. I definitely won’t buy them today. Just been looking on Ebay,somebody want to sell one single Telefunken ECC803s for $2000!!!!!!. That is insane and somebody want to sell a pair of Valvo 12at7 pinched waist for $1000.When I bought most of my tubes on auctions they were cheap.

I never sell any tubes,but swapped 3 pairs of WE300b from the late 1940 and early 1950th last week for a beautiful hifi Table with 6 shelves and 2 stands for my massive single ended monoblocks,each of them are about 200lbs.It look me more than 6 month to build ,but still want to trysome different biasing on my fron tube a 6f8g,want to run them harder to get a even more powerful sound and waiting for a top metal cover.Big 212 tubes,great tube and 48watt single ended but sounds more like 500watts

I am fortunate,got around 12 000 tubes.I sometimes still buy some tubes,but much less these days.I hate EBAY,because you never know what you getting,I been fooled a couple of times and then Ebay for some reason, I still don’t know , suspended my account for a few days and then I cancelled my account

Low gain tubes can work sometimes but sometimes not so well,it all depends on the circuit.Well I just installed a GE6414 in my LTA Ultra Linear power amp instead of a 12au7 and it sounds fantastic.I know these tubes are not interchangeable and are completely different,but it sounds great.I run then well past the max.voltage,but very little current.We will see if they explode one day

I must also agree ,the whole Philips main land tube factories made great tubes.I must admit,Mullard rectifying tubes and EL84 and EL34 are great.

In my LTA Ultra Linear ,I am using a Mazda 3 mica Silver Plate ECC83,and I got a couple of pairs of Telefunken ECC803s but the Mazda had more flesh and great full bottom end.I tried many many ECC83 in that position and in the end it was a choice between the Raytheon 12ax7 blackplat and the Mazda and because I got more pairs of Mazda Left I use them

The best tube is the one,you already got and don’t have to pay big bucks for it. Lets be very honest,between the best ,the differences are small,very small.

This weekend I want to sit down and listen,what 300b sounds the best,got WE300B and some from China and Japan and some from Germany.got 7 different ones and then see witch WE212 and Psvane 212 is best.I got a couple of WE212 metal plate and graphite plate pairs.

The only tubes I never been excited about are the small signal tubes from China.I bought a few pairs about a year about from Psvane,the Black couted onesECC83 ,over $100 a piece and they were not good, absolutely boring.The other tubes from China,the expensive range like 6SN7 or 300b and 211 can be good but expensive and some people claim they don’t last.My experience is different,all of them lasted many thousand of hours,but they are too expensive.I can get great NOS for less.

Hunt the best tubes and let us know you experience

Keep on rolling
Cheers

 

[DasguteOhr]

Today the 12AU7/ECC82 /5814 /6189W Family

My perspnal ranking
1. Telefunken smooth anode sheets rich tone, organic
2. Siemens & Halske before 1960 equal a bit less dynamic
3. Telefunken ribbed anode sheets cleaner thiner tone*
4. Valvo Hamburg darker more bass nice midrange less heights
5. RFT DDR stamped with 1 domestic tube, with 2 stamped export tube
6. General Eletric 5814 millitary long life tube
7. RCA Cear top ,a good sounding tube
8. CITFE french madza offshoot
9. ITT Schaub Lorenz or AEG made by Telefunken insider info did not reach the high quality standard of Telefunken were relabeled
I use all the tubes to create my ideal sound
I'll spare you the review 802s types, I don't support bidding delusion on these tubes.
there are too many fakes on the net, purely for info there are no Tesla / jj802s these are E 82cc types. Telefunken after the end of its tube production in Ulm sold the machines to Yugoslavia.




* in use not on the photo

 

[Sablon Audio]

@DasguteOhr - have you tried any e80cc? Tbf it’s only Tungsram and Philips which made them, however I found them to be excellent assuming your equipment can cope with the extra current drawn.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Yes,a E80CC has a steeper edge of 2.7 mA / V than an ecc82 2.2 mA / V, it has a better response behavior. If you have an ecc82 in a input stage from a power amp, you can also use a 12BH7*

*if the heating circuit is not overloaded

 

[Music and Wine]

Hello Das gute Ohr.

Really ,nice selection of tubes.I agree with you .The ranking is good.I won’t disagree with anything.Everybody got a different taste you got some nice tubes.

I know Tesla bought all the machines to manufacture tubes from Telefunken,but in my humble opinion,No Tesla ever sounds like Telefunken,I got them both here.

I can see you are German from your name.Nothing wrong with it,I was also born in Germany and also because you included some ITT Lorenz tubes,they are almost impossible to find outside Germany.
I know the Tesla called the frame grid ECC82,E82cc.I still don’t understand the philosophy why they called it E82CC

It is always interesting,everybody got a different opinion and that I am loving.

Best advice,only trust your own ears and if anybody got a different opinion,that is just fine.

All the best
Regards

 

[DasguteOhr]

Hello Das gute Ohr.

Really ,nice selection of tubes.I agree with you .The ranking is good.I won’t disagree with anything.Everybody got a different taste you got some nice tubes.

I know Tesla bought all the machines to manufacture tubes from Telefunken,but in my humble opinion,No Tesla ever sounds like Telefunken,I got them both here.

I can see you are German from your name.Nothing wrong with it,I was also born in Germany and also because you included some ITT Lorenz tubes,they are almost impossible to find outside Germany.
I know the Tesla called the frame grid ECC82,E82cc.I still don’t understand the philosophy why they called it E82CC

It is always interesting,everybody got a different opinion and that I am loving.

Best advice,only trust your own ears and if anybody got a different opinion,that is just fine.

All the best
Regards

Thank you,
During the time of the iron curtain, tesla got the inner life of the tubes from Mühlheim, GDR. a communist brother state. real 802s only come from Siemens or Telefunken. ECC82 means normal service life, E 82CC long service life at least 5000 hours. ECC802s means 10000 hours for military, the S stands for perfect symmetry of the triode systems.

For Fake 802s are often used 6211 telefunken, visually difficult to tell apart without a magnifying glass. With an original 3 wires you can see in the anode plate opening, with the 6211tube you can see at least 7 wires. there are many rebranded tubes on ebay. caution is advised before the nice money spends on bad tubes.
ECC802S


FAKE 6211

 

[Music and Wine]

Hi Das gute Ohr

Thanks for the advice.You actually mentioned something,I only observed yesterday.I got a couple Telefunken 6211 and one has no diamond mark between the pins.I got a couple that got them and one pair without and a couple with gold pins that got them as well.Too be honest I haven’t used them for years and can’t tell you if the ones with diamond mark(Raute in German) sound the same or not.One day I will try them and compare

Great to chat to somebody that understands German tubes.Just for interest,you will know it veterans well, some normal Telefunken ecc81 or Ecc82 or ecc83 can last many many thousand hours.They are hard too kill.Very good reliability.I got some that I use,rather call misuse for 35 years and they still test like new and sound the same.

Vielen Dank
Servus

keep on rolling the bottles

 

[DasguteOhr]

I once worked for Telefunken for 3 years, an older colleague taught me a lot about tubes.
it's always nice to talk about things, what to do with our hobby

Tubes are more reliable than you might think, a little story, when there were no satellites, transatlantic submarine cables were used for telecommunications. There are still lines that are still in use today, where tube amplifiers were used under water that will still work after 60-70 years.

Gern geschehen
Schönen Abend noch

 

[thomask]

I once worked for Telefunken for 3 years, an older colleague taught me a lot about tubes.
it's always nice to talk about things, what to do with our hobby

Tubes are more reliable than you might think, a little story, when there were no satellites, transatlantic submarine cables were used for telecommunications. There are still lines that are still in use today, where tube amplifiers were used under water that will still work after 60-70 years.

Gern geschehen
Schönen Abend noch

Wow

Telefuken ECC82 is one of my favorite tube stll working in my Rogue Cronu Magnum II.

It gives very clear and lively sound.

I agree with your opinion that tube is more reliable than SS.

 

[Salectric]

I agree. Tubes can be very reliable provided they are used in gear with conservative operating conditions. I remember reading somewhere that the new owner of a house discovered a MC-30 inside a sealed wall that had been powered up continuously for decades. The Mac still worked fine and all of the tubes were still ok although one of the output tubes had a weak reading.

 

[Music and Wine]

Hi

I am the first person that would change to S/S if they would sound as good as tubes ,but at the same time,I am retired what must I do,just sit around.No ,I rather build something interesting with tubes,it is fun and most of the time sounds really good,sometimes it also sounds crap,but then I learned something.I got S/S amps but never use them and they are not bad,they Accuphase A250 monoblocks ,supposed to be ok.But nothing I had the pleasure listening too captured the beauty of music like tubes especially single ended direct heated triodes.Maybe these great super S/S exist,but I never had the pleasure listening to them.

I don’t think in my lifetime,I will switch Completely to S/S. I believe in tubes and got enough to last well past my lifetime and my grandchildrens expected lifetime.I am not sure if they are willing to accept the love and devotion that tubes need. Kids today want everything easy and uncomplicated

Today I put in my big 212 amp a KenRad VT99 ,6f8g staggered ladder plate,exactly the same internal plate structure as the KenRad vt231 but sounds very different.I hasn’t got that enormous powerful bass,but it is lovely.I am still fighting my way through the 6f8g because,the branding is very confusing.KenRad that are labled as Sylvania and NU that are made by Sylvania and many more strange names,I never heard about in 35 years.This is a minefield and can be very misleading.I now got 4 different KenRad 6f8g,round ,oval,ladder plates and inline flat plates.Two different TungSol,2 different Sylvania,2 different Raytheon and 1 RCA and one NU

I got so many boxes full of tubes and in every box I find something new and then it takes hours to figure out who and when and why and where in was produced .Many times I go through the boxes and find something I forgotten about.Like when I started the design of the 212 amp. I discovered Bendix 6900 tubes.I tried to use them in the beginning,but was not happy with the sound and switched to 6SN7,but I still want to try different biasing and different B+ voltages and maybe I will still get it to perform .We will see.This tube hobby get me out of bed in the morning and gives me sleepless nights,but I love it and the challenges

My wife thinks I am crazy and should take up a different hobby like cleaning the house or polishing the cars daily,but no,I enjoy my tubes and building tube equipment.Keeps me occupied and out of trouble.

Please let us all know about your best tubes and your most liked tube producer and why.I love it an gives me something to think about
Keep on rolling these beautiful bottles
Cheers

 

[DasguteOhr]

I agree. Tubes can be very reliable provided they are used in gear with conservative operating conditions. I remember reading somewhere that the new owner of a house discovered a MC-30 inside a sealed wall that had been powered up continuously for decades. The Mac still worked fine and all of the tubes were still ok although one of the output tubes had a weak reading.

it does not have to be operated on conservatively, I will report here on a very special El 34 tube. has been running for 6 years at 430v / 52mA in a push pull amp under tough conditions and is still good with 85% emissions.
here a nice video about the tube amplifier under water.