Tuners

[naturephoto1]

Here are photos of what are generally considered to be the best Sansui Tuners:

The TU-X1 mentioned by Tom and in the link from George above:

The TU-919 mentioned in George's link:

and the TU-9900 that I use:

Rich

 

[tmallin]

If anyone else here has a TU-X1 or acquires one, I suggest you try adding the little jumper wire discussed here. It really does seem to make a positive difference in the signal quieting for any given station even if I'm not sure that the signal strength meter is accurate in showing an increase in signal strength of around 35 dBf.

 

[Gregadd]

Yamaha ct7000

 

[Gregadd]

ebony Yamaha CT7000

 

[ulf]

I use a Accuphase T1000 tuner. It has fantastic sound. When Swedish State Radio sends live direct from Berwald Concert hall in Stockholm with Swedish Radio SO it is perhaps THE best source I have . Better than CD and perhaps even better then the best vinyl.
A revealation!
The compressed comercial Pop stations is another matter.

 

[tmallin]

I use a Accuphase T1000 tuner. It has fantastic sound. When Swedish State Radio sends live direct from Berwald Concert hall in Stockholm with Swedish Radio SO it is perhaps THE best source I have . Better than CD and perhaps even better then the best vinyl.
A revealation!
The compressed comercial Pop stations is another matter.

I have frequently had the same impression over the years with live FM concert broadcasts on WFMT. I'm not sure why this should be so, since I know that at least some compression is still in use and there should be some bandwidth limitations due to the nature of FM broadcasting. My best guess is that the filtering out of frequencies above 15 kHz acts to reduce some of the nastier digital artifacts present from other sources. There is or was once a product called the Taddeo Digital Antidote which was basically an analog high frequency filter. If you Google that name you'll find various glowing reviews for this simple device.

 

[Gregadd]

Our discussion of antennas made me decide to do some investigation. Taking my bicycle and riding around the neighborhood I did some cursory inspection for outdoor antennae. i did not expect to find anything due tot the percieved domination of cable and satellite. I was delighted to find an abundance of antennae:

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

I have a Pioneer F-91 which sounds damn good but there is nothing, imho, to listen to any more on FM in NYC. In CT, I do not get any decent FM reception, anyway, so the classic Kenwood I have up there has not been powered up in years. Sigh.

Kal, have you listened to WMNR at 88.1 and other places (has about a dozen translators throught CT and LI)? Their audio isn't great, but at least the people that present it play serious works and are knowledgable about Classical music. The GM is none other than Leroy Anderson's son, Kurt. I was their chief engineer for about 12 years, so I may be slightly biased.

 

[tmallin]

Our discussion of antennas made me decide to do some investigation. Taking my bicycle and riding around the neighborhood I did some cursory inspection for outdoor antennae. i did not expect to find anything due tot the percieved domination of cable and satellite. I was delighted to find an abundance of antennae:

And THAT kind of antenna ugliness is why many newer subdivisions like mine have rules strictly prohibiting all but the smallest of antennas, those aimed at receiving OTA digital TV broadcasts and satellite TV (24" diameter maximum). Some of what you picture are old VHF/UHF antennas meant for now-passe analog TV reception, but I do see a few FM-only models as well. As I mentioned in a prior post, those old VHF TV antennas can make fine FM antennas if you remove or bypass the FM-trap which is usually incorporated in such designs.

 

[microstrip]

I'm probably the only person without a flat screen tv.
BTW My tuner is a used Yamaha CT-7000.

No, you are not. Our only TV at home is a Loewe crt - much better image for watching the news than any flat screen! (And it is green - power consumption is one third of the flat screens of similar viewing area).
But for cinema we use a 3 x (flat) LCD projector.

BTW, the best tuner I have owned was a Primare 203. The sound was vivid and very clear, but not aggressive. Later I was told by Bo Christensen, Primare founder, that this tuner was commissioned to Tandberg, who designed one the most sought european tuners, the TPT-3001A, that many people still consider one of the finest ever manufactured.

 

[tmallin]

BTW, the best tuner I have owned was a Primare 203. The sound was vivid and very clear, but not aggressive. Later I was told by Bo Christensen, Primare founder, that this tuner was commissioned to Tandberg, who designed one the most sought european tuners, the TPT-3001A, that many people still consider one of the finest ever manufactured.

I owned the Tandberg TPT-3001A for several years. I bought it brand new and paid full price. It was okay sonically and RF-wise, but I'm one of the dissenters who think its reputation is inflated. For a lot of information on this tuner, see here. I vastly prefer my current Sansui TU-X1 and DaySequerra M4.2R tuners.

 

[R-2-R]

Well I'll admit that radio in general has sure changed since I started listing to it as a kid back in the day (like from the mid 60's!) and with all the changes in format and such, through out the years, I found myself not listening to it as much, even in my truck. But I still would not give up my 'tuner' (a Magnum Dynlab FT-101A) that on occasion I will tune into a stations program that I can tolerate, such as on Sunday mornings there is a contemparory radio station that plays jazz from morning till noon that my wife and I like to listen to as well as on Saturday nights another station we like tuning into, though mainly during the week we rarely turn it on if not at all. To each their own but as for me I still like knowing I can turn on my turner and listen to any type of music, rock, oldies, christen, country & western, tejano, jazz, etc. free without having to pay for it. (remember when TV used to be free! Now there's cable, satellite, etc.) In other words I have a choice on the airwaves and not just on a computer, a cable or satellite box and can turn on the radio whenever I feel like it. Long live analog FM radio? (heck watch it end tomorrow!)

 

[Gregadd]

WARNING! We would not like to lose any of our members. Remember to properly ground any antenna. It makes an excellent lightening rod. My firend in college was installing a CB antenna on his roof. The antenna fell over striking the power line. He and his helpers were knocked from the roof. All survived.

 

[v5OhxSJu]

What's best and IBOC

As to the DaySequerra, I know that there are many naysayers about HD radio, but my own experience, both in a moving car and in this home system, are that in real-world FM-land it usually sounds as good as or better overall than the same station's analog signal. As with most HD radios, at the touch of a button one can compare the standard analog FM signal of a station with its HD signal. Both sound excellent on this tuner.

The best sounding tuner I have had in my system is a McIntosh MR-65B modified by Stephen Sank.

Other tuners that handle IBOC noise well include: McIntosh MR-77, Blair-modified Scott 370, Pioneer F-91, Scott 312-C.

Thanks to Tmallin for his informative posts. HD radio probably is as good as car FM will get.

The downside is the damage to sound quality of regular FM broadcasts. Many of us do live in areas where standard FM reception is good and worthwhile programming is available.

My local classical station has 3 HD sidebands and is terribly noisy on most tuners; I've have more that half a dozen tuners through my system in the last two years.

Don't buy any conventional tuner until you find out whether you will have problems with noise from HD radio. Respected tuners that have failed this in my system include: updated and aligned Dynaco FM-3, McIntosh MX-130, Harman-Kardon TU 920, Sony ST-S550ES, freshly aligned Harman-Kardon Citation IIIX. The same tuners got good reception on an alternate-channel station without HD and with lower power. I have read posts by owners of Magnum Dynalab Etudes that stations that sounded good before now are noisy for them since the introduction of IBOC.

I did try a Sangean HD tuner and it was very, very quiet but did not present a good soundstage like a good standard FM tuner.

Good luck and be careful out there!

 

[amirm]

Very good info there and great first post . I listen to radio a lot in my car. HD radio is definitely a trade off with 80% good and 20% not. The compression artifacts are there to be sure but having better channel separation and frequency response free of multipath distortion makes it worthwhile. No doubt the digital side bands can bleed into the analog channel so a tuner with good selectivity is needed.

 

[tmallin]

HD radio probably is as good as car FM will get.

The downside is the damage to sound quality of regular FM broadcasts. Many of us do live in areas where standard FM reception is good and worthwhile programming is available.

My local classical station has 3 HD sidebands and is terribly noisy on most tuners; I've have more that half a dozen tuners through my system in the last two years.

Don't buy any conventional tuner until you find out whether you will have problems with noise from HD radio. Respected tuners that have failed this in my system include: updated and aligned Dynaco FM-3, McIntosh MX-130, Harman-Kardon TU 920, Sony ST-S550ES, freshly aligned Harman-Kardon Citation IIIX. The same tuners got good reception on an alternate-channel station without HD and with lower power. I have read posts by owners of Magnum Dynalab Etudes that stations that sounded good before now are noisy for them since the introduction of IBOC.

I did try a Sangean HD tuner and it was very, very quiet but did not present a good soundstage like a good standard FM tuner.

Good luck and be careful out there!

It may not be just the mere presence of HD broadcasts on the same channel which is causing the additional noise in the analog FM signal. Most stations are probably using the same total power to radiate their signals as they once were. Some of that power is being siphoned off for HD broadcasting. Thus, the signal strength of the analog signal as picked up by the analog tuner will drop, resulting in more noise. Also, civilization just keeps adding to the noise heard in any given analog FM signal from any point on the map even if the signal strength at the transmitter remains the same. There is more and more interference from buildings and other RF transmissions. Pre-HD, I used to notice that my favorite classical station in Chicago, WFMT, got noisier and noisier as the years went by even though my home location did not change, constantly pushing me to upgrade tuners and antennas to retain a quiet signal.

The price of DaySequerra HD/FM tuners keeps dropping. The M4.2S, which replaces the M4.2r that I have, is said to be even better and now costs only $1,000 in its "basic" configuration. Mine cost close to $3,000 a few years back. See Radio Monitors > HD Radio Tuner > M4.2S at http://www.daysequerra.com/ViewProduct.aspx

The squashed dynamics are just a product of what the station is doing, not HD Radio. The analog FM signal will sound just as squashed, if not more so, compared to the HD. Some stations at least lower their compression ratios via HD and internet streaming, compared to broadcast analog FM.

I agree that soundstage truncation is one of the minuses of HD Radio compared to analog FM as heard over an excellent analog tuner. The other downside is that the HD signal will usually sound brighter. But all other sonic aspects of HD are at least as good as analog FM if not better and usually, on balance, I prefer to listen to the HD signal from my home location.

 

[GaryProtein]

My Nikko Gamma 5 is in storage.

Hey Kal--isn't that a sad state in a city as big as New York. Gone are the days of WQXR who had its studio equipment designed by Dick Sequerra!

Hey, screw WQXR (and the New York Times for that matter who owned them). I terribly miss the days of WNCN 104.3, that I listened to in high school. They played the really good stuff, entire pieces, fewer commercials, and their announcers always seemed to have an IQ 15 points higher than those at WQXR. http://www.wncn.org/

I sent Bob Sherman at WQXR a complaint about all the commercials, playing only bits and excerpts of full pieces when I was in college, and his reply was that their jingle jangle commercials paid the rent and (at least at the time) prevented them from joining WNCN in the "off the air" department!

I have nothing to listen to anymore except "Car Talk" on NPR radio on my MR78 that I had modified and updated by Richard Modafferi.

 

[Steve williams]

It may not be just the mere presence of HD broadcasts on the same channel which is causing the additional noise in the analog FM signal. Most stations are probably using the same total power to radiate their signals as they once were. Some of that power is being siphoned off for HD broadcasting. Thus, the signal strength of the analog signal as picked up by the analog tuner will drop, resulting in more noise. Also, civilization just keeps adding to the noise heard in any given analog FM signal from any point on the map even if the signal strength at the transmitter remains the same. There is more and more interference from buildings and other RF transmissions. Pre-HD, I used to notice that my favorite classical station in Chicago, WFMT, got noisier and noisier as the years went by even though my home location did not change, constantly pushing me to upgrade tuners and antennas to retain a quiet signal.

The price of DaySequerra HD/FM tuners keeps dropping. The M4.2S, which replaces the M4.2r that I have, is said to be even better and now costs only $1,000 in its "basic" configuration. Mine cost close to $3,000 a few years back. See Radio Monitors > HD Radio Tuner > M4.2S at http://www.daysequerra.com/ViewProduct.aspx

The squashed dynamics are just a product of what the station is doing, not HD Radio. The analog FM signal will sound just as squashed, if not more so, compared to the HD. Some stations at least lower their compression ratios via HD and internet streaming, compared to broadcast analog FM.

I agree that soundstage truncation is one of the minuses of HD Radio compared to analog FM as heard over an excellent analog tuner. The other downside is that the HD signal will usually sound brighter. But all other sonic aspects of HD are at least as good as analog FM if not better and usually, on balance, I prefer to listen to the HD signal from my home location.

Hi Tom

nice to see you back in our neck of the woods. I hope all is well and I look forward to seeing you here on a more regular basis

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

I've attached some spectral plots of IBOC transmissions, to help illustrate what we're discussing here. Each horizontal division is 75Kc wide, two of the blocks make up an analog FM signal width, minus the 'guardband' of 25Kc. As you can see in the first plot, the two lower pedestals at -26dB are the IBOC sidebands in the Ibiquity system now in use here in the northeast.




The second plot shows peak hold spectral mask in green, averaged spectrum in red, and an instantaneous snapshot in blue.




As can be seen, the amount of disturbance wipes out the first adjacent, so say good bye to DX listening.

 

[v5OhxSJu]

FCC reviewing HD radio power increase bid

Below is a link to a story in the trade journal Radio World:

http://www.rwonline.com/article/proponents-want-uneven-fm-sideband-power-approved-quickly/211546

Apparently this is a shift in power between sidebands rather than an increase in total power. The result would be more stations getting permission to raise their HD power. Ibiquity (the company behind HD Radio) and NPR say this would do no harm.