It' s not impossible - let' s make a list.Thanks Marslo, if we can do SET amp comparisons, I will be down in a flash
Upcoming Italian extravaganza on Zero distortion
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Thanks for the fascinating write-up, Ked.
I found your appreciation of smaller speakers remarkable. Nice you mention Peter and myself in the report. You say there:
I agree the speakers should disappear when you want to listen to music, rather than to sound from speakers. It is indeed very hard to make larger speakers completely disappear in not so large rooms. I am not saying it cannot be done, but I rarely have heard it. Those who think they have their large speakers disappear should listen to a well set-up monitor system, preferably quite a bit away from the front wall if possible, and then think again. If they still come to the same conclusion regarding their system, that's great. But some of them may then realize what disappearance of speakers really means.
Like Peter I have great respect for what well-designed large speakers can do. But in less than very large rooms it usually comes at a sonic cost that I personally am not willing to pay. All IMO of course.
That is why I would want a system with large speakers only in a very large room. Some have suggested that my room (24 x 12 x 8.5 feet) could accommodate larger speakers. To which I say: Forget it.
(Again, all IMO of course).
Reality can be disturbing indeed. My dream speakers for my room are still not any large speakers, but Reference 3A Reflector monitors (the top-of-the-line model above my own Reference 3A speakers). Advantage is also price point: $ 12 K. Perhaps combined with an upgrade of my subwoofer.
For many years I had Wilson Audio Watt/Puppy 7's in a smaller space (18'x11'x9') and it sounded great. The speakers disappeared completely when used with the proper equipment (at that time conrad johnson and the Forsell CD air transport and matching DAC - the Transparent Reference XL cables were also mandatory).
As I said, perhaps it can be done. But as you point out, well selected equipment, including cables, was mandatory to achieve the goal. I just don't want to go through the hassle of trial and error, potentially having to spend considerable sums of money along the way.
Also, you have extensive experience with monitors, which will have helped you to know what you were looking for as a goal.
It was space behind the speakers and positioning at the right place. It was giving a seamless soundstage that started behind the speakers, and came through to the listener as if there was no speaker in between. There was reasonable speed and bass slam. Excel is probably a strong word, but it did basically make us ask the same question you did, why don't we get this seamlessness - there is a continuity of sound through the room - with better speakers, and it is just placement. Also in these rooms the bass does not over load and that probably leads to the clean sound. In ordinary rooms, simple and small might work better than big and bold
Thank you for another extremely interesting and very fast-paced report, Kedar!
I have liked the Viva amps every time I have heard them -- from Viva Credenza to Gary's demo systems.
You seem to be finding that, in general, tape beats vinyl and vinyl beats digital. I agree with this.
Taken broadly I feel your expanding data set of audition experiences supports the notion of considering the room and the speaker placement to be ever larger components of resulting sound quality. Do you agree?
Looking back do you think we may have misjudged certain speakers along the way because of inappropriate room size or poor speaker placement at the time?
I have liked the Viva amps every time I have heard them -- from Viva Credenza to Gary's demo systems.
You seem to be finding that, in general, tape beats vinyl and vinyl beats digital. I agree with this.
Taken broadly I feel your expanding data set of audition experiences supports the notion of considering the room and the speaker placement to be ever larger components of resulting sound quality. Do you agree?
Looking back do you think we may have misjudged certain speakers along the way because of inappropriate room size or poor speaker placement at the time?
Ron, the room/speaker thing being the most important is a well known basic, just that many get stuck with upgraditis and keep going bigger. Also the room is not often under our control as not all audiophiles can change their listening
room. The desire to change, buy and try is what keeps many ticking, sometimes at the cost of better sound. This works with analog too. Possibly someone might ruin a well matched set up to get a more expensive cart or something that doesn't match. I think we underestimate big. Big might be smaller than many think, is what Dimitri was stressing.
Regarding auditions, I think what is required is to listen to same speaker in different set ups. As you know I haven't liked the Apogees in many set ups and in some they have just wowed me.
All this is easy to say while posting/blogging. While investing one should just be honest to oneself what kind of a person he is - swapper, upgrader, does he just want to spin without changing, does he want a well-recognized price tag, etc and buy speakers accordingly. I think many of us differ in our decision making process though most would be in agreement about speaker/room interaction.
room. The desire to change, buy and try is what keeps many ticking, sometimes at the cost of better sound. This works with analog too. Possibly someone might ruin a well matched set up to get a more expensive cart or something that doesn't match. I think we underestimate big. Big might be smaller than many think, is what Dimitri was stressing.
Regarding auditions, I think what is required is to listen to same speaker in different set ups. As you know I haven't liked the Apogees in many set ups and in some they have just wowed me.
All this is easy to say while posting/blogging. While investing one should just be honest to oneself what kind of a person he is - swapper, upgrader, does he just want to spin without changing, does he want a well-recognized price tag, etc and buy speakers accordingly. I think many of us differ in our decision making process though most would be in agreement about speaker/room interaction.
I will take your words to describe what I fell with the B&W Silver signature, adding an extremely defined feeling of the original room. The perfect small speakers for large orchestral music, as they could present the scale, even lacking the power feeling.
But IMHO this presentation has drawbacks - it is very selective of the type of recording and equipment connected to the speakers. Curiously I found that in my experience tubes were not adequate - it needs clean amplifiers with "slam" to create all this space, the best I found was a Krell S300i integrated with the matching CD player. And recordings of different type, such as singers needing a rhythmic support can became boring. Old jazz recordings also suffer from it.
My first days with the Devialet used in this mode upstairs with the Silver Signature seemed perfect - but soon I got tired of it, I was not enjoying the music, just the sound.
BTW, I loved B&W with the old Audio Research tubes such as the classical D70 or D115 - an wonderful combination.
Hi micro, he was using a class D Gato amp, so that slam you are talking about with Krell...
Btw, I am not saying this is the complete system, or even close. I am highlighting some attributes that room matching achieves. After the Windsor hifi show I had posted here about simple systems sounded better, and that was w.r.t Heco Direkt. Whether this can be achieved by standamounts, Sabrina, or whatever, it is important to have speakers you can pull in, get that soundstage behind that flows through to the front, with speed and slam. Timbre will change with speakers and electronics, but a bigger size could affect the layering, cause bass boom, and make it sound as if coming from the speakers.
Btw, I am not saying this is the complete system, or even close. I am highlighting some attributes that room matching achieves. After the Windsor hifi show I had posted here about simple systems sounded better, and that was w.r.t Heco Direkt. Whether this can be achieved by standamounts, Sabrina, or whatever, it is important to have speakers you can pull in, get that soundstage behind that flows through to the front, with speed and slam. Timbre will change with speakers and electronics, but a bigger size could affect the layering, cause bass boom, and make it sound as if coming from the speakers.
1) Yes - I feel that we learned about the importance to soundstage of pulling speakers from the front wall and into the room from our dipole speakers. The soundstage often develops from behind the speakers.
I would always start by placing dipole speakers 6 feet or 7 feet or even 8 feet into the room. (I still think this may be why either I don't hear soundstage depth, or because of their physical proximity to the front wall I simply visually trick myself into thinking I don't hear soundstage depth, when horn speakers are at or all close to the front wall.)
2) Mike L's front wall/loudspeakers/listening chair configuration shows that even with a great amount of listening room length a speakers-pulled-out and listening-position-close-in configuration might be best.
3) But attempting 2) could occasion driver integration problems with some speakers if you're sitting too close, and, as you suggest, attempting this with large speakers in smaller rooms could create bass overload.
4) While I always have pulled dipole speakers well away from the front wall and into the room, rightly or wrongly, I have then liked the distance from the midpoint between the speakers to the listening position to be about 1.5 times the distance between the speakers. Maybe tgat has been wrong all tgese years and I should gave been listening closer-in.
The fact is I have never had the patience to experiment the way Mike L did and Marty did and now is again with tiny changes in speaker location and listening distance. (I am not going to make this mistake again, and I know I'm going to spend a very, very long time getting the Pendragons placed optimally.)
Ron, good observations.
Not everyone can pull their speakers back from the front wall, but if you can you should do it. The drivers of my speakers are about 7 feet from the front wall, and I sit close to the speakers, at approximately 8.5 feet distance from the ears (that's not as close as Mike L does, but sitting even closer should also not be a problem with my monitors).
Pulling out the speakers is crucial, at least in my room, to achieve the great spatial depth that I have. Just moving them half a foot closer to the front wall, at 6.5 feet, leads to a noticeably shallower soundstage. Not earthshaking, but noticeable and perceived as suboptimal after a while.
I have briefly tried what happens with the speakers just 3 feet from the front wall. I couldn't wait to move them away again.
I ve been reading a bit about acoustics lately , being the the last step the room lol .
Afaik acoustic engineers overhere prefer the ceiling to be higher then the distance to the sidewalls , so the reflected sound of the sidewalls arrivers earlier then the reflected sound of the ceiling .
This will then improve hearing a stereoimage as the hearing doesnt get mixed up , not that that is possible in my situation but talking more of a ideal situation.
Talking theoritically without adding absorption /diffusors
Afaik acoustic engineers overhere prefer the ceiling to be higher then the distance to the sidewalls , so the reflected sound of the sidewalls arrivers earlier then the reflected sound of the ceiling .
This will then improve hearing a stereoimage as the hearing doesnt get mixed up , not that that is possible in my situation but talking more of a ideal situation.
Talking theoritically without adding absorption /diffusors
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I ve been reading a bit about acoustics lately , being the the last step the room lol .
Afaik acoustic engineers overhere prefer the ceiling to be higher then the distance to the sidewalls , so the reflected sound of the sidewalls arrivers earlier then the reflected sound of the ceiling .
This will then improve hearing a stereoimage as the hearing doesnt get mixed up , not that that is possible in my situation but talking more of a ideal situation.
Talking theoritically without adding absorption /diffusors
Can you point me some references or links concerning the influence of ceiling height in listening rooms? I would appreciate reading about this particular subject. Thanks!
I got it from this video but its in dutch , they are a worldwide known company and design or redesign some of the most famous halls , its called peutz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK1-9Z-G1dY&t=15s 6,50 in the vid
i ll try search one in english
its about scale models used in designing halls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIwneKfddAE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK1-9Z-G1dY&t=15s 6,50 in the vid
i ll try search one in english
its about scale models used in designing halls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIwneKfddAE
Music halls requirements and theory are completely different from audio listening rooms. F. Toole summarizes pretty well why the music halls must have high ceilings in his book - the audience that spreads over all the room is highly absorptive and in order to get enough reflective area to have a high enough reverberation time we have to have high ceilings in order to have enough wall surface.
This is exactly what Al M. and I have experienced regarding speaker placement within the room. The next, perhaps last, few % in performance can be achieved through very precise symmetry relative to the listening seat confirmed with laser measurements and levels. It is surprising how a tiny change at the speaker translates to a significant change at the listening seat. It can be argued that the location of the listening seat within the room is as critical as the location and orientation of the speakers.
I have found that a clean, coherent extension to 40-45Hz with limited range speakers is often (or always) better than a more extended response to 20Hz if there are newly introduced issues like lack of clarity or coherence because of room/speaker issues, for overall musical involvement and suspension of disbelief.
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