Upcoming Nagra turntable

[mtemur]

ideally you want the armboard and the platter to be connected together to maintain perfect synergy to properly navigate the groove. the plinth is the method to do this connecting. so tapping on the plinth should cause noise through the speakers. it's a problem if it does not do that.

OTOH you want the plinth, platter and armboards to be decoupled from the motor and the rack if possible, to avoid feedback from the musical energy and motor resonance.

it's not that complicated.

there are particular designs with stand alone arm-board towers, or custom versions. but these have their own sets of challenges related to this separation. and there are air bearing and air float platter/plinth designs that might not work the same. but the concept of a consistent solid platter-plinth-armboard connection is the ideal. those three have to be aligned and synergistic one way or the other.

certainly all pieces are subject to air borne energy, unless you remove the tt from the room, which complicates things in different ways. but when i listen with headphones compared to my speakers, i don't hear anything different. so the degree of air borne music energy effect is minimal on the platter/plinth/arm. not saying zero, just not relevant to my enjoyment. i do have a concrete floor, good racks, and well engineered turntable designs. so YMMV.

+1

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hi Ron, what do you mean by "not replaceable?" Are you referring to installing other manufacturers arms? My dealer has 2 Nagra armwands, for two different cartridges. So this arm can be easily interchanged for another Nagra arm. As others have mentioned, this is a system approach, table and arm are integral as a unit vs many other tables that you can do what you want regarding arms.

Yes, I was referring to installing other manufacturers' tonearms. After reading the marketing literature I could find I did not see any suggestion that third-party tonearms could be installed on the turntable. I apologize for being incorrect.

 

[mtemur]

To me - it's obvious you feel differently - any vibration of the medium in any way is wrong and it is impossible for a record to be "overdamped."

If you are so sure about that put your turntable on a sand pool and try to listen if you can stand it. Do the same to your speakers, completely decouple them from the floor. It will be vibration free other than sound produced by drivers but I don’t think you will like the end result.

Don’t forget sound is a kind of vibration too.

I’m sorry for polluting this thread with unrelated topic.

 

[Lagonda]

Why do replacement parts for a military aircraft cost more than multiple 911s?

Small batch runs of esoteric parts are expensive.

And finding suckers crazy enough to pay 780 K for a TT is really expensive !

 

[bonzo75]

Why do replacement parts for a military aircraft cost more than multiple 911s?

Small batch runs of esoteric parts are expensive.

ok, but do they improve the travel experience? It not why pay for parts caused in small batch runs

 

[Zeotrope]

Agreed.
Not a fan of the magnetic drive concept in the Esoteric T1, other than its neat tech. Not having a direct contact with the platter could cause unintended consequences such as speed stability. And unless those magnets are electromagnets (and they don‘t seem to be), you may have hysteresis and loss of magnetic field issues to deal with.
You also have full time electronic speed control employed, which probably adds noise and contributes to speed instabilities.
Just initial reactions - this is not a table I would rush to buy until long-term reviews come out from respected enthusiasts. But nice to see so much innovation and competition in this space!

 

[Zeotrope]

And finding suckers crazy enough to pay 780 K for a TT is really expensive !

It is not 780K - that’s totally false. More like $180 list.

 

[Ron Resnick]

This comes purely from subjective listening experience and not from any knowledge about vibration control in turntables: I do think there is -- to my ears -- such a thing as an over-damped turntable.

As much respect as I have for the engineering and design and build quality of TechDAS turntables, I think there is some way in which the AF1 sounds a touch over-damped. Or maybe I should say that the sound coming from the AF1 sounds a touch less energetic and full of life than some other turntables.

I could very happily live with an AF1 for the rest of my life. But at a very cosmopolitan level I do have this sonic sense about the AF1.

An early report about the Nagra referring to harmonic richness suggests to me that the Nagra does not sound over-damped.

 

[PeterA]

This comes purely from subjective listening experience and not from any knowledge about vibration control in turntables: I do think there is -- to my ears -- such a thing as an over-damped turntable.

As much respect as I have for the engineering and design and build quality of TechDAS turntables, I think there is some way in which the AF1 sounds a touch over-damped. Or maybe I should say that the sound coming from the AF1 sounds a touch less energetic and full of life than some other turntables.

I could very happily live with an AF1 for the rest of my life. But at a very cosmopolitan level I do have this sonic sense about the AF1.

An early report about the Nagra referring to harmonic richness suggests to me that the Nagra does not sound over-damped.

I agree that a turntable can be over damped. It’s like a room being over damped. I lived with both of these things and at first I enjoyed the accentuated sense of detail and emphasis on certain things emerging from blackness. Then I heard an alternative approach. This was a more complete sonic picture full of nuance and ambiance with more lifelike energy and realism.

They are simply different approaches for a different type of sound. One has to decide which he prefers.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Agreed.
Not a fan of the magnetic drive concept in the Esoteric T1, other than its neat tech. Not having a direct contact with the platter could cause unintended consequences such as speed stability.

i think you will find it is exactly the opposite.

And unless those magnets are electromagnets (and they don‘t seem to be), you may have hysteresis and loss of magnetic field issues to deal with.
You also have full time electronic speed control employed, which probably adds noise and contributes to speed instabilities.

exactly the opposite.

Just initial reactions - this is not a table I would rush to buy until long-term reviews come out from respected enthusiasts. But nice to see so much innovation and competition in this space!

i guess we wait and see how that goes.

understand my post was not intended to one up the Nagra, it was to suggest that first time efforts can be special.

but none the less, game on!

 

[Jeffy]

It is not 780K - that’s totally false. More like $180 list.

Off the subject does the apple x come at all close to the kaledescape being that the apple uses compression. Lot of money for a sep. power supply.

 

[Zeotrope]

i think you will find it is exactly the opposite.

exactly the opposite.

i guess we wait and see how that goes.

understand my post was not intended to one up the Nagra, it was to suggest that first time efforts can be special.

but none the less, game on!

I don‘t agree; but will keep an open mind!
And certainly price-wise, the Esoteric T1 is not intending to compete with the best; so that makes sense.

 

[Zeotrope]

Off the subject does the apple x come at all close to the kaledescape being that the apple uses compression. Lot of money for a sep. power supply.

Great question- wondered the same. The ATVX “destroys” the Kaleidoscape in image quality. I realize that it’s streaming a smaller file but the image quality is superior with the ATVX. It’s more than just the power supply - Chris goes in depth with the changes made on the website:

AppleTV X

The best AppleTV on earth - AppleTV X

appletvx.com

I like the Kaleidescape but would not have bought it had I had the ATVX first. The K-scape is certainly not worth ~3-4X the price of the ATVX.
Sound quality is slightly better with K-scape, but it’s hard to tell; and I have a highly revealing system…

I have talked to K-scape about this: they need to do a lot more work to improve things like noise and jitter. The fact that the player ships with a $1 switching power supply tells you how importantly they consider this. Again, I love the company but their marketing that they beat streaming in image quality is just not true — not with the ATVX anyway. The ATVX is a bargain a 1/3-1/4 the cost of the Strato.

 

[Jeffy]

How can it not beat it because they don’t use compression

 

[Zeotrope]

How can it not beat it because they don’t use compression

Well, it does. Image quality is way better on the ATVX. Sharpness and contrast are noticeably improved. It’s due to noise and jitter. Chris has hit a home run.
Remember that video IS compressed on UHD disc. Only audio is lossless.

I own the Kaleidoscape as well. I never use it unless there’s a title I want to watch that is not available on ATV, which is rare. With the regular ATV it was the opposite: I dreaded watching anything on ATV when I could watch on Kaleidescape instead. Hopefully this “proves” it for you.

 

[mtemur]

And certainly price-wise, the Esoteric T1 is not intending to compete with the best; so that makes sense.

But price doesn’t always in line with performance. Recently it became a habit to price components according to prestige of the company not it’s performance.

 

[Xymox]

Well, it does. Image quality is way better on the ATVX. Sharpness and contrast are noticeably improved. It’s due to noise and jitter. Chris has hit a home run.
Remember that video IS compressed on UHD disc. Only audio is lossless.

I own the Kaleidoscape as well. I never use it unless there’s a title I want to watch that is not available on ATV, which is rare. With the regular ATV it was the opposite: I dreaded watching anything on ATV when I could watch on Kaleidescape instead. Hopefully this “proves” it for you.

I fix the HDMI. Vastly lowered jitter, vastly lowered noise on the HDMI physical layer signal, lab grade clock for the HDMI, precision voltages with low drift. I also dejitter the CPU/SSD/RAM/Ethernet chip and HDMI chip. All this combined creates a HDMI signal that is vastly better then what is coming from a Oppo or K-Scape. Turns out the HDMI ( and its chain of chips ) are the weak link and seem to be more important then anyone thought. So while bitrate IS important, cleaning up HDMI is way more important then you might think.

I have tons of these in the field and tons of clients have k-scape and oppos and they all have the same reactions. No one ends up using the k-scape or oppo. Plus of course the apple TV has TV series, sports, zillions of apps, itunes, DirecTV, cable app, tidal, pics, screen sharing and it all looks/sounds stunning with the ATVX. Its a kinda 1 stop box.

 

[Zeotrope]

The Apple TV X is a steal and a must have for anyone interested in the best AV quality for movies and TV shows. Price-wise, look at it as a better Kaleidescape for 1/4 the price.
(I have no ties to the company other than being a customer.)

 

[jfrech]

Yes, I was referring to installing other manufacturers' tonearms. After reading the marketing literature I could find I did not see any suggestion that third-party tonearms could be installed on the turntable. I apologize for being incorrect.

Hi, no need to apologize! I do think you are correct in that they do not make an arm board that entertains other mfg's tonearms. It's a system turntable+arm.

 

[Zeotrope]

Hi, no need to apologize! I do think you are correct in that they do not make an arm board that entertains other mfg's tonearms. It's a system turntable+arm.

Personally, I prefer a system approach at this price-point; but I understand that this is not to everyone's preference and some will prefer to mix and match. It's definitely possible to do so, but it will not be as easy as with another table. I like the "Apple" approach!