Upgrade prioritization

[Steve williams]

Not necessarily. Room optimization is a very time consuming process, which is all debited to my "remaining hours I can listen to music" account. The net present value of these hours is also very high because it is an upfront investment. It makes sense to do the least time consuming (i.e. buy cables) stuff first, and wait with the time consuming stuff until I have more time (i.e. in retirement or unemployment, whichever comes first).

well I must be using the wrong cables because I've not found any that changes my soundstage but then again I've never bought a PC for that reason. I do agree about room treatments. It gives the biggest ROI and you seem to be the accountant who is compartmentalizing your priorities would understand ROI.

 

[rockitman]

I do exactly the same. I calculated my expected remaining hours on earth I will be listening to music is around 20,000. I could also drop dead tomorrow. I simply cannot afford NOT to listen to the best system I can afford.

+1000

 

[edorr]

well I must be using the wrong cables because I've not found any that changes my soundstage but then again I've never bought a PC for that reason. I do agree about room treatments. It gives the biggest ROI and you seem to be the accountant who is compartmentalizing your priorities would understand ROI.

I never suggested I am buying PC to improve soundstage. I sollicted input on three upgrade options (including PCs) and suggested the area I feel my system has relatively the most improvement potential (I think) is soundstage. If soundstage cannot be improved with either stillpoints, PCs or better music server (the three options), I'll just (happily) continue to live with the soundstage I have, because changes in room treatment or speaker placement are not in the cards for now.

 

[rbbert]

...changes in room treatment or speaker placement are not in the cards for now.

And those do little or nothing to keep the high-end industry flourishing

 

[edorr]

And those do little or nothing to keep the high-end industry flourishing

Thankfully. Without the "high-end industry", 90% of the folks hanging around here would be on prozac (including me).

 

[PeterA]

Deeper soundstage...hmmm...speaker placement? What happens if you move the speakers forward slightly?

My thoughts exactly. I know this is not on your list, so ignore it if I'm off topic. Have you considered hiring Jim Smith to voice your system? It will cost you less than any of your options and the improvement to my system was tremendous. You can read my review of his work in the Member Reviews section.

 

[edorr]

My thoughts exactly. I know this is not on your list, so ignore it if I'm off topic. Have you considered hiring Jim Smith to voice your system? It will cost you less than any of your options and the improvement to my system was tremendous. You can read my review of his work in the Member Reviews section.

I have been asking around for names of guys to come in and optimize my system (including make recommendations for room treatment), but could not find anyone qualified and/or interested. I'd be quite interested in finding out more about Jim Smith. What are the variables he addresses in the "voicing" process?

 

[Bill Hart]

I have been asking around for names of guys to come in and optimize my system (including make recommendations for room treatment), but could not find anyone qualified and/or interested. I'd be quite interested in finding out more about Jim Smith. What are the variables he addresses in the "voicing" process?

Edorr- since Peter has already had Jim visit and help him, he can speak from direct experience. I've known Jim a pretty long time, and respect his knowledge. I will likely have him visit once I am set up again in Texas.
Here's a link to his site: http://getbettersound.com/roomplay-concept-pricing-guarantee.html

My take on your question is that there are too many variables to advise you in the abstract. I'm sure all the three things you've listed may yield varying degrees of improvement, but, as you yourself seem to admit, they may be band-aids if the basics haven't been addressed. Aside from room, what about power?
I'm a firm believer in the judicious use of high quality power cords, isolation and decoupling devices (I use a few different Stillpoints products) and improvements in things like power supplies. But, really getting the most out of your system does take time and effort and some of the biggest improvements may have to do with placement in the room and good, quiet AC power.
One other observation: the better my system has gotten, the less I focus on 'hi-fi' attributes like soundstaging. It's just one facet of what makes for an overall musical presentation.
MadFloyd is supposed to have Jim come to visit him soon and promised to report on that as well.
I know that we all have this desire for the 'magic bullet' and it's easy to drop money on 'tweaks' or ancillaries because it is a new 'product' that you can look forward to playing with, rather than moving furniture, and taking measurements, and experimenting with new locations for speakers and gear in the room. (I reached a limit on this in my existing room, which is why i am looking forward to the next one!).
Good luck and let us know what changes you make, with what results.

 

[PeterA]

I have been asking around for names of guys to come in and optimize my system (including make recommendations for room treatment), but could not find anyone qualified and/or interested. I'd be quite interested in finding out more about Jim Smith. What are the variables he addresses in the "voicing" process?

Hello edorr, here are two links to my review of the RoomPlay service and following comments. The details can be found therein:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?10285-Jim-Smith-RoomPlay-voicing-session

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?raccs&1366334747&openmine&zzPeterayer&4&5#Peterayer

Basically, Jim came up from Atlanta to voice my system to my room and also that of my audio buddy who lives down the street. We both are extremely pleased with the results. He spent a day and a half working on my system. The result is that the reproduction improved in all areas but most notably, Tone, Dynamics, and Presence. Subsequent component changes seem easier to hear, though I can't say this with certainty because I did not make them before Jim was here. But the System is so much more resolving and enjoyable, that I think it is easier to hear changes that I have made since he left. The best part is that relative to a typical component upgrade, his service fee is very reasonable. I had a most enjoyable weekend working with him, I learned a lot and my musical enjoyment is much improved.

I really think that this is an option you should consider.

 

[edorr]

Hello edorr, here are two links to my review of the RoomPlay service and following comments. The details can be found therein:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?10285-Jim-Smith-RoomPlay-voicing-session

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?raccs&1366334747&openmine&zzPeterayer&4&5#Peterayer

Basically, Jim came up from Atlanta to voice my system to my room and also that of my audio buddy who lives down the street. We both are extremely pleased with the results. He spent a day and a half working on my system. The result is that the reproduction improved in all areas but most notably, Tone, Dynamics, and Presence. Subsequent component changes seem easier to hear, though I can't say this with certainty because I did not make them before Jim was here. But the System is so much more resolving and enjoyable, that I think it is easier to hear changes that I have made since he left. The best part is that relative to a typical component upgrade, his service fee is very reasonable. I had a most enjoyable weekend working with him, I learned a lot and my musical enjoyment is much improved.

I really think that this is an option you should consider.

I also live in Atlanta which will save some of the cost. Will definitely look into this and give him a call

 

[PeterA]

I also live in Atlanta which will save some of the cost. Will definitely look into this and give him a call

If that is the case, you should definitely contact him via his website. You could probably visit him and hear his system, which Madfloyd here has done and said it is extremely good. In my humble opinion, if he lives that close, it is a "must investigate" option. He is a very nice gentleman.

 

[edorr]

If that is the case, you should definitely contact him via his website. You could probably visit him and hear his system, which Madfloyd here has done and said it is extremely good. In my humble opinion, if he lives that close, it is a "must investigate" option. He is a very nice gentleman.

I can't believe I did not find out before. I made a serious effort trying to find exactly this service last summer, but got no further than some home theater installers / calibrators, and professional studio designers, and threw in the towel. I already left him a voicemail.

 

[PeterA]

I can't believe I did not find out before. I made a serious effort trying to find exactly this service last summer, but got no further than some home theater installers / calibrators, and professional studio designers, and threw in the towel. I already left him a voicemail.

He is coming up to voice Madfloyd's system this weekend. I know Floyd well and encouraged him to contact Jim. I look forward to hearing the result. Perhaps Floyd will report on the experience on the Jim Smith thread.

 

[MadFloyd]

Yes, I will comment as I've promised in another thread.

 

[edorr]

If that is the case, you should definitely contact him via his website. You could probably visit him and hear his system, which Madfloyd here has done and said it is extremely good. In my humble opinion, if he lives that close, it is a "must investigate" option. He is a very nice gentleman.

Making arrangements for a visit with Jim.

I also think in order to get the best out of my system, I am going to have to bite the bullet and do some serious reconfiguration of my room. Basically, I am very restricted by all the gear I have crammed between my speakers (see pics - there is another rack behind the main rack with power conditioners, music server and processor). I am thinking of moving my main rack to the sidewall and just keep 2 poweramps (and may be one powerconditioner for each monoblock amp + the bass module amplifier of the MM3), and my center speaker at the front wall. I would need to move some gear (power conditioner, processor and music server) to an adjacent room and make a conduit to run cabling through the wall to in order to make this happen. This would be a pretty major operation, but it can be done. Any thoughts about the benefits of moving the bulk of my gear from the rack between the speakers to the sidewall?

 

[Bill Hart]

Making arrangements for a visit with Jim.

I also think in order to get the best out of my system, I am going to have to bite the bullet and do some serious reconfiguration of my room. Basically, I am very restricted by all the gear I have crammed between my speakers (see pics - there is another rack behind the main rack with power conditioners, music server and processor). I am thinking of moving my main rack to the sidewall and just keep 2 poweramps (and may be one powerconditioner for each monoblock amp + the bass module amplifier of the MM3), and my center speaker at the front wall. I would need to move some gear (power conditioner, processor and music server) to an adjacent room and make a conduit to run cabling through the wall to in order to make this happen. This would be a pretty major operation, but it can be done. Any thoughts about the benefits of moving the bulk of my gear from the rack between the speakers to the sidewall?

View attachment 9532

I have to believe that having that reflective screen between the speakers is probably doing you no favors, and also suspect that Jim will get you to move the gear to a sidewall or elsewhere, also to get it out from between the speakers. I don't know how folks do combined audio with video without doing something about the screen. I have two separate systems in the room, where the screen is the 'backwall' when I am hi-fi'ing. But, I use acoustic treatments on floorstands to block the screen when I am in music mode.
You have a very nice system, BTW.

 

[edorr]

I have to believe that having that reflective screen between the speakers is probably doing you no favors, and also suspect that Jim will get you to move the gear to a sidewall or elsewhere, also to get it out from between the speakers. I don't know how folks do combined audio with video without doing something about the screen. I have two separate systems in the room, where the screen is the 'backwall' when I am hi-fi'ing. But, I use acoustic treatments on floorstands to block the screen when I am in music mode.
You have a very nice system, BTW.

This picture is not current, and I dropped in some substantial new hardware (MSB Dac + Ref 5SE preamp) since. See this (http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/1364166765.jpg).

I am not looking for perfection, but substantial improvement. I can move the rack to sidewall, but covering the screen will be tough. We'll see what Jim has to say....

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Erik I am so glad you are doing this rather than spending 5K on power cords or isolation cones. From the photo it seems like the room is mostly untreated save a couple of GIK products?

 

[PeterA]

This picture is not current, and I dropped in some substantial new hardware (MSB Dac + Ref 5SE preamp) since. See this (http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/1364166765.jpg).

I am not looking for perfection, but substantial improvement. I can move the rack to sidewall, but covering the screen will be tough. We'll see what Jim has to say....

edorr, I think you are well on your way. You will learn a lot from Jim. Before he came to do my system, I sent him photos and dimensions. One of his strong arguments is to move the equipment away from between the two speakers. Preferably on a side wall and not in the first reflection point. My rack is on the right wall between the listener position and the first reflection point. This location does improve the sense of depth and center image focus.

I agree with what whart wrote that your video screen is not ideal, but in that sense, most of our rooms have some compromises. I suppose you could look into a retracting screen positioned at or inside that soffit. Also, your room looks narrow enough to maybe do away with your center channel which I guess is for off-center listening to video dialog. You might be surprised by the result after Jim works on placement that you can get away with no center channel speaker for video. Jim has thoughts about unused speakers in a room effecting 2-channel listening. If you must have them, they should be powered on with no signal to avoid driver movement.

Boy has this thread taken a turn.

 

[edorr]

Erik I am so glad you are doing this rather than spending 5K on power cords or isolation cones. From the photo it seems like the room is mostly untreated save a couple of GIK products?

Nyal, I have corner traps and panels on the wall, but that is it. Keep in mind though, my room is the same size as Bruce B. studio, and the frequency response of my MM3s measures better in my room than did his MM3s in his professionally designed studio (not sure this in any way indicative of sound quality - I suspect his studio sounds infinitely better). I don't have a good reference of what can be achieved because I don't get to hear many other systems. I did listen to the $45K Vandersteen 7s at a local dealer in an optimized custom build room and my system sounds quite subtantially better. Nonetheless, I just have this hunch I am not getting remotely the full potential out of my gear so I want a pro to come in and work with me.

The main investment in reconfiguring the room would be lots of labor, a longer set of interconnects (my current cords are barely a week old, but may be transparent will trade them in for longer ones), may be an additional power conditioner, and a day of Jim White's time.