Upgrade prioritization

[edorr]

Most, if not all, of the rooms at the three audio shows that I have attended were set up by dealers and/or manufacturers. Most have had problems in my opinion. The gear is often quite good, but the poor sound is often blamed on "show conditions." I have come to learn that at least some of the poor sound is less than optimal set up by the sponsors of the room. Perhaps this is just my opinion.

I have only been to Axpona Atlanta since moving to the USA, and found some of the >$100K rooms an embarrasement (notable exception MLB).

 

[Jim Smith]

Interesting Jim

Can you share with the members what your background is and how you developed these skills

In this case, definitely TMI!

So I'll just put up several links.

There is much more (in fact, I quit updating this long ago, due to the volume of replies) but these may be useful:

http://getbettersound.com/about.html

http://getbettersound.com/speakout.html

http://getbettersound.com/whattheysaid.html

http://getbettersound.com/roomplay-testimonials.html

 

[microstrip]

I should start a separate thread for this, but the results have astounded me. I thought I had my speakers everywhere in my room and couldn't quite shake an annoying peak around 60hz, but it's now gone. The only node I'm left with is around 31hz which is a lot less intrusive. I thought for sure I needed tube traps (and probably lots of them) to get the intelligibility I wanted out of the bass, but I'm very happy with it now (tube traps would still improve things according to Jim). Bass in my room is the same as listening to good headphones - just amazing.

Bass is not the only area improved of course - it's all better. Speakers are very far out into the room (another thing that I didn't think was possible with Wilsons) and soundstage is fantastic.

Jim is meticulous. My room is extremely challenging as no two walls are parallel.

Highly recommended.

While you do not start a very welcome separate thread on it, could you tell us if Jim's work was mainly re-positioning the speakers or did he add some kind of treatment or modification to the room/system?

 

[MadFloyd]

While you do not start a very welcome separate thread on it, could you tell us if Jim's work was mainly re-positioning the speakers or did he add some kind of treatment or modification to the room/system?

No room treatments. He re-positioned the main speakers and integrated subs by positioning them and then adjusting crossover and gain.

 

[Steve williams]

How did he adjust crossover on your Wilson Sashas

 

[Elliot G.]

I don't have a good reference, but I think imaging, dynamics and timbre of my system are pretty good, but I could do better creating a "deeper" soundstage. I.e getting the sound a little further behind the speaker.

Erik,
Do the source it is by far in my opinion the most important of the items you are discussing.
The CAPS 3 with the battery supply is a HUGE jump. In my experience the noise floor was so much quieter and the resolution of the whole system was significantly better. This is a bargain!

 

[edorr]

Erik,
Do the source it is by far in my opinion the most important of the items you are discussing.
The CAPS 3 with the battery supply is a HUGE jump. In my experience the noise floor was so much quieter and the resolution of the whole system was significantly better. This is a bargain!

Thanks Elliot. I did in fact order the Red Wine Audio Powersupply (6 week backordered) and will order the CAPS 3.0 (Zuma) when the PS is close to getting shipped. The reason for prioritizing this was somewhat driven by economics, but I may have made a good call. I'll get the powercords next, and will hold out for the stillpoints until a used set shows up. Meanwhile I'm tackling the room.

 

[MadFloyd]

How did he adjust crossover on your Wilson Sashas

Well first you have to get AT the crossover which is buried inside the cabinet. This involves some precision drilling and a lot of know-how.

OK, I'm kidding - I meant he adjusted the crossover on the subs. I use REL G2's which (unlike my F113's) get their signal from the main amps (no need for extra set of preamp outputs). The main speakers are run full range and the subs are used to augment the lower frequencies. Because of the way Wilsons are designed they don't have a lot of deep bass when pulled far out into the room and the subs help - not just for authority for for sense of space.

 

[Steve williams]

Well first you have to get AT the crossover which is buried inside the cabinet. This involves some precision drilling and a lot of know-how.

OK, I'm kidding - I meant he adjusted the crossover on the subs. I use REL G2's which (unlike my F113's) get their signal from the main amps (no need for extra set of preamp outputs). The main speakers are run full range and the subs are used to augment the lower frequencies. Because of the way Wilsons are designed they don't have a lot of deep bass when pulled far out into the room and the subs help - not just for authority for for sense of space.

so you are running Sashas full range with the subs bringing up the bottom end. What crossover point did you use on the F113's

 

[rockitman]

How did he adjust crossover on your Wilson Sashas

There is no messing with Wilson crossovers other than changing external resistors where applicable as they are encased in epoxy to keep trade secrets secret.

 

[microstrip]

No room treatments. He re-positioned the main speakers and integrated subs by positioning them and then adjusting crossover and gain.

Thanks. So we can assume that Jim typically just comes in place and positions the speakers in optimal places - something similar to what people from Wilson or Sumiko do using their proprietary methods? And his book is a guide to teach people to do it by their selves?

 

[microstrip]

There is no messing with Wilson crossovers other than changing external resistors where applicable as they are encased in epoxy to keep trade secrets secret.

Perhaps they want to keep it secret, but I think it is mostly to enhance performance avoiding components vibration and increase reliability.

 

[MadFloyd]

so you are running Sashas full range with the subs bringing up the bottom end. What crossover point did you use on the F113's

I forget and it's not material given that it was ME adjusting it and not Jim Smith. Jim only adjusted the REL's. When I did have the F113's in the system, I would have had the crossover very low (probably < 30hz).

 

[edorr]

I forget and it's not material given that it was ME adjusting it and not Jim Smith. Jim only adjusted the REL's. When I did have the F113's in the system, I would have had the crossover very low (probably < 30hz).

I used 2 x JL113 with my Avalons Eidolon Vision (at full range), crossed over at 35hz.

 

[PeterA]

Thanks. So we can assume that Jim typically just comes in place and positions the speakers in optimal places - something similar to what people from Wilson or Sumiko do using their proprietary methods? And his book is a guide to teach people to do it by their selves?

Microstrip,

I would not make such an assumption. Jim does more than move speakers around. He also finds the optimal position for the listener. He discusses room treatment, what goals are, etc. He spent ten hours straight without even a lunch break voicing my system. And that was after two hours of listening to issues the night before. I wish that the typical dealer had his experience and knowledge and interest/dedication to the client. System voicing should be a standard service with the sale of any expensive speaker system, but sadly, this is not always the case. I know of a few instances in which he came after dealers and others had tried to set up a system and the client was not yet satisfied. He was hired to improve the sound further. For a better idea of at least my experience, you can read this:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?raccs&1366334747&openmine&zzPeterayer&4&5#Peterayer

or

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?10285-Jim-Smith-RoomPlay-voicing-session

The book is a guide to teach people how to set up a system and also considerably more. You should check out the "Get Better Sound" website for more information.

 

[microstrip]

Microstrip,

I would not make such an assumption. Jim does more than move speakers around. He also finds the optimal position for the listener. He discusses room treatment, what goals are, etc. He spent ten hours straight without even a lunch break voicing my system. And that was after two hours of listening to issues the night before. I wish that the typical dealer had his experience and knowledge and interest/dedication to the client. System voicing should be a standard service with the sale of any expensive speaker system, but sadly, this is not always the case. I know of a few instances in which he came after dealers and others had tried to set up a system and the client was not yet satisfied. He was hired to improve the sound further. For a better idea of at least my experience, you can read this:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?raccs&1366334747&openmine&zzPeterayer&4&5#Peterayer

or

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?10285-Jim-Smith-RoomPlay-voicing-session

The book is a guide to teach people how to set up a system and also considerably more. You should check out the "Get Better Sound" website for more information.

Thanks Peter - when I addressed the speaker positioning I was implying, although not explicitly referring, to listener positioning. I see that compared to the typical cost of high-end equipment such service is money well spent if your dealer does not carry it. What was the type of service you have got? I can see three different fares on the site.

 

[Jim Smith]

Thanks Peter - when I addressed the speaker positioning I was implying, although not explicitly referring, to listener positioning.

microstrip, that is a a great observation.

IME, nothing can be done until the best listening position is established.

That is foundational, and all else follows from that initial effort.

Simply relocating speakers without having first addressed the best listening position is almost always a waste of valuable time & effort.

 

[PeterA]

Thanks Peter - when I addressed the speaker positioning I was implying, although not explicitly referring, to listener positioning. I see that compared to the typical cost of high-end equipment such service is money well spent if your dealer does not carry it. What was the type of service you have got? I can see three different fares on the site.

Jim Smith came to my house and voiced my system to my room. That service is called "RoomPlay." I describe the service fairly comprehensively in my review. I have contacted various dealers to help do this and their understanding of what is involved, shall we say, was a bit less thorough. They don't always address the listening seat issue, or clearly explain what the goals are. IMO, these are as critical as getting the speakers in the right place. Another one of Jim Smith's real strengths is the ability to properly integrate the subwoofers with the main speakers. Some dealers don't address this either relying instead on the proprietary processing programs included in some subwoofers.

 

[microstrip]

Jim Smith came to my house and voiced my system to my room. That service is called "RoomPlay." I describe the service fairly comprehensively in my review. I have contacted various dealers to help do this and their understanding of what is involved, shall we say, was a bit less thorough. They don't always address the listening seat issue, or clearly explain what the goals are. IMO, these are as critical as getting the speakers in the right place. Another one of Jim Smith's real strengths is the ability to properly integrate the subwoofers with the main speakers. Some dealers don't address this either relying instead on the proprietary processing programs included in some subwoofers.

I have not read yet enough to comment with any authority on Jim Smith's techniques. However all this seems a one man show - his methods seem to rely exclusively on his talent and expertise. I went through a few of his Quarternotes volumes and the 31 secrets, and can conclude he is a very experienced installer and a great enthusiastic communicator - to the point we risk thinking all this phenomena is hype. Fortunately his great experience and CV seems to suggested that there is something solid behind it. Anyway he seems to be adding more weight to side that says that small room sound reproduction is more black art than science.

Still thinking if I should order the book ... Anyway it was great to have your testimony.

 

[rbbert]

He's got a new project in the works, book plus video, IIRC. I'm due some kind of premium for donating to his project on Kickstarter (although I can't remember the details).