Various DAC Audition Impressions

[joaovieira]

APL works best with Roon too. That’s how it is here. That’s how APL recommends.

The new brazilian dealer for APL told me last week that he tried to play with other players but came to the conclusion that Roon really works better than the others.

 

[pk_LA]

Hi pk_LA, I enjoyed reading and I was happy to learn that you chose the msb select 2 over all the other options. I recently order a select 2. I hope to have it in place in the beginning of September . Your review made me feel extra good about my decision. I had considered a few of the dacs on your list. The Horizon for one. I had a bad experience with tubes so I chickened out. I am wondering if you are considering the msb select Digital Director? I can’t help but wonder if the DD is the final link to cement the select 2 to being the dac for all others dacs to measure up too? I plan on living with the select a while before considering any additional purchases. But definitely in my thoughts. Congrats on your select

I have purchased a Director but they are not yet shipping.

 

[pk_LA]

It seems that everyone (myself included) is hoping that Patrick will be bringing in the newly released MSB Digital Director to complement his Select ll. If so I bet everyone will want to read that review. Interesting comments by Patrick in passing re the Horizon and he will be coming back to hear mine as I also look forward to visiting Patrick to hear his new gear. I am hoping to hear the Digital Director with the new Select ll. It's all good Patrick

I am looking forward to having Steve and Ron over to listen when it arrives. They can they augment and hopefully share some of the blow back!

 

[Alpinist]

I have purchased a Director but they are not yet shipping.

Congrats PK on your purchase of the Digital Director! It should be an amazing addition to a phenomenal DAC. What digital input module are planning on using, Pro USB?

Ken

 

[Hyperion]

Worth mentioning is that the SW1X DAC 1 is the very entry level from this up and coming UK brand.

The DAC V would have been a worthy competitor: https://sw1xad.co.uk/product/sw1x-dac-v/

/ Marcus, www.perfect-sense.se

 

[pk_LA]

Congrats PK on your purchase of the Digital Director! It should be an amazing addition to a phenomenal DAC. What digital input module are planning on using, Pro USB?

Ken

yes

 

[pk_LA]

Worth mentioning is that the SW1X DAC 1 is the very entry level from this up and coming UK brand.

The DAC V would have been a worthy competitor: https://sw1xad.co.uk/product/sw1x-dac-v/

/ Marcus, www.perfect-sense.se

View attachment 97309

View attachment 97310

fair point

 

[Hyperion]

fair point

It's an impressive comparison and effort nevertheless, but it's important to compare apples to apples during identical conditions as far as possible. Adding to that are the obvious system dependent differences and ultimately personal preference of course.

APL and Playback Designs are two additional contenders who makes reference efforts while at the same time being 20-50% of the cost of the top offerings from Wadax, dCS and MSB. Worth mentioning is Ypsilon as well, who believe they've made the best DAC they can at approx. $30-40.000 in the US I believe (there's a higher level silver transformer version available as well), which they combine with their highest end amplification at >$100.000.

I'm carrying APL, MSB, Playback Designs (incoming), Boulder, Ypsilon, CH Precision, SW1X and more which I guess makes me biased to some degree. Having a broad range available for different systems, people, preferences and budgets is important to me. I do try to avoid the most technical, over analytical and dissecting options out there though which lacks the ability to connect us to the music.

At the moment, I'm eagerly awaiting the new CH Precision C1.2 here. It would be very interesting to see a SOTA DAC from Boulder within the 3000 series as well at some point.

Thanks again for the comparison!

/ Marcus, www.perfect-sense.se

 

[MarkusBarkus]

Hey @pk_LA are you clear on the connection scheme for the DD using the ProISL/USB? That is what I would like to see. I have read everything I could find and have had email with MSB, but it isn't clear (to me). Are you solid on that?

 

[bryans]

Hey @pk_LA are you clear on the connection scheme for the DD using the ProISL/USB? That is what I would like to see. I have read everything I could find and have had email with MSB, but it isn't clear (to me). Are you solid on that?

I'm also looking at the Director to pair with my Premier. There sure is a lot of discussions around connections. The director connects to the DAC via fiber. You chose whatever connection you want to connect to the director. Just like @pk_LA I plan on using my current ProISL/USB.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...but there is optical out (Toslink) for control functions to dac *and* the fiber optic output (essentially an SFP transceiver, presumably) of the built-in module in DD...from photos it looks like output, not input. Actually, the MSB folks have been responsive to my q's and I *owe* them an email to refine my questions.

 

[bryans]

...but there is optical out (Toslink) for control functions to dac *and* the fiber optic output (essentially an SFP transceiver, presumably) of the built-in module in DD...from photos it looks like output, not input. Actually, the MSB folks have been responsive to my q's and I *owe* them an email to refine my questions.

Correct. Toslink out of DD into DAC for control. Fiber out of DD into DAC for data. You then select whatever input into DD that fits your needs. I currently use a ProISL/USB today so I will use that into the DD.

Check out Post in thread 'The Digital Director - A new MSB product improving everything from the source to the output' https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...om-the-source-to-the-output.34897/post-802691 maybe this will help explain.

 

[Kawero]

Got a new firmware on the optical link of my Wadax Ref server/Ref Dac. Huge difference and improvement !!!

Need to re-adjust the digital waveform settings (the famous 3 knobs). Big thanks to the Wadax team!!

 

[Peter Hönnemann]

As many of you know, I set out to audition a number of the leading DACs in my system with the goal of identifying the ideal fit for my ears. Below is a bit of a stream of consciousness summary of how it all sounded and went for me.

But, first please let me outline a few parameters and disclosures...

1. These notes are my thoughts and impressions based on my impressions. They are not in any way meant as a declaration or even a proper review.
2. Not all of the DACs were inserted in the system identically! Some of them were heard with a streamer or a clock or bespoke cables. I will try to identify the setups below. For those looking to 'sweep the knee' on this post - one DAC had a FTA USB while another had a $5 USB!
3. Many DACs were connected to the pre-amp using Transparent Opus Gen 6 balanced interconnects that were not tuned for the DAC. The tuning of the interconnects makes a noticeable difference - more so depending on the variance from what it is tuned to vs. the actual component. I have noted where this was the case.
4. I tried to remain consistent with music tracks for all DACs with music ranging from classical to rock to EDM to folk
5. There was an attempt to equalize the sound pressure across all
6. Each DAC was compared against a dCS Vivaldi Apex stack (Clock, Upsampler, DAC)
7. DACs were setup with the Boulder 3010 using trim functions for equalizing so that we could instantly switch back and forth and A|B|A listen
8. Some DACs I had for days and others for only a few hours!
9. I am not bought into, "...how the artists intended it..." I do not care too much about measurements. I have firsthand seen debates between artists and engineers occur on mixes to the effect of, "...it sounds best under x! But, we should mix it this way as most people will listen with y..." Let me say this another way. I care about music that moves me emotionally. I have regularly smiled when I read statements about "...how the artists intended..." I suggest that these people speak to some artists on how the process works.

The system that was used is outlined below.

1. Source: Roon Nucleus connected via either network or by USB (specified per DAC)
2. DAC: Variable
3. Pre-Amp: Boulder 3010
4. Amp: Boulder 3060
5. Speakers: Wilson Alexx V
6. Cables: All cabling is Transparent Opus Gen 6 (power cords are all Gen 5)

Basis system: dCS Vivaldi

• Connections:
  • Ethernet connection to network
  • Transparent Magnum Opus Gen 6 balanced interconnect *tuned
• Audition setup: Dealer loaned it to me
• Impressions
  • Detail and resolution as good as I have ever heard
  • Can be a bit harsh upper range vocals
  • Wanted for more body - it can be somewhat thin
  • Incredible ability to resolve complex transients
  • Wanted for longer more natural decay - felt like it was 'just the facts' and absolutely no more
  • Lacked some warmth
  • Upper mid-range balanced
  • GREAT on classical music, processed music and EDM
• Other: The dCS is highly dependent on the Upsampler and DAC variables that are user set. There is a filter on the Upsampler, an Upsampler output formal (DSD etc), a DAC filter and a DAC map. And, they all affect the sound.

Lampizator Horizon

• Connections:
  • FTA USB from Roon Nuc
  • Transparent Opus Gen 6 balanced interconnect *not tuned
• Audition setup: Sent for audition
• Impressions
  • Wow! The holographic soundstage is amazing!
  • Density!
  • Decay
  • Air and space - instruments are there!
  • Not a quick and resolving as the dCS but so so musical
• Other: The Horizon changed sound signature in the days I had with it more-so than solid-state gear I am used to. I was urged by Steve W to be patient but I was not. I have since wondered as the person I sent mine to indicated that once broken in it was incredible. I do not doubt it. That first night I plugged it in it was like nothing I have heard before.

Nagra HD X

• Connections:
  • Source was replaced by an Ideon Absolute Stream and Clock
  • USB to DAC (dealer brought top end Audio Quest)
  • Audio Quest Dragon balanced interconnect to pre-amp
• Audition setup: Dealer onsite audition for 2 hours
• Impressions
  • Smoother than dCS
  • Nice linearity and body with classical and rock
  • Struggled v dCS on some quick transients
  • Less musical than dCS on highly processed music and EDM
  • Mid-range focused v dCS
• Other: I could have happily gone with this DAC

Infigo Method 4

• Connections:
  • Bespoke streamer brought by Infigo Audio
  • USB to DAC
  • Transparent Opus Gen 6 balanced interconnect to pre-amp *not tuned
• Audition setup: Infigo Principle brought to my home for a couple hours
• Impressions
  • Warm - almost tube warm
  • Soundstage was similar to dCS
  • Struggled v dCS on some quick transients
  • On some dance tracks such as Senorita (Shawn Mendes and Camilla Cabello) it was get up and dance engaging.
  • Seemed to really shine with upper midrange centric tracks
• Other: The Principal of Infigo is one of the nicer and most intellectually curious people I have met in audio

Wadax Reference

• Connections:
  • Wadax Reference Server
  • Specific optical cable between server and DAC
  • Audio Quest Niagra 7000 power conditioner
  • Ethernet to server via Audio Quest Diamond
  • Audio Quest Dragon balanced interconnect to pre-amp
• Audition setup: Dealer visit for 2 hours
• Impressions
  • Linear
  • Smooth
  • Noise floor higher than dCS
  • Very musical
  • Server adjustments - Gain etc made massive changes in sound and were necessary
  • Soundstage very similar to dCS
  • No matter what music thrown at it it sounded great
  • Very balanced
  • Handled transients as well as dCS
• Other:
  • I do not understand the Wadax haters. It is a damn impressive DAC. One might argue value but, at least in my system to my ears, it was a wow.
  • I suspect that the server is required for the sound on this one.

Aries Cerat Kassandra Ref

• Connections:
  • $5 computer USB from Nuc
  • Transparent Opus Gen 6 balanced interconnect to pre-amp *not tuned
• Audition setup: Very kind visit from Robert Do
• Impressions
  • Imagine solid state with a hint of tubes
  • Linear and quick
  • Noise floor higher than dCS
  • A tick muddled on quick transients
  • Slightly less musical on processed and EDM than dCS
• Other:
  • Near entry level DAC for Aries Cerat that held up to the dCS flagship. Wish I had more time with it!
  • Changed the power cord from Transparent Opus to Inakustik reference silver and it resolved as well as the dCS

SW1X DAC 1

• Connections:
  • Coax from my upstairs bedroom subwoofer went from Upsampler as passthrough to DAC
• Audition setup: Sent from distributor for audition
• Impressions
  • Wonderful tube sound
  • Did not seem to have the soundstage like the Lampi
  • Struggled on transient and complex sections compared to the dCS
  • Very smooth
  • Lower mid balanced
• Other:
  • This was a somewhat unfair comparison. The cable was an Amazon Basics subwoofer coax passing through other components.
  • I do not feel entirely comfortable with this set of notes given the cobbled together setup

MSB Select II

• Connections:
  • Roon Nuc -> Shunyata Omega USB t-> ProISL
  • Transparent Opus Gen 6 balanced interconnect to pre-amp *not tuned
• Audition setup: Purchased used for demo
• Impressions
  • Body and density!
  • Balanced across the spectrum
  • Linearity to match anything
  • Has every bit the detail of the dCS
  • No harshness anywhere
  • Has a width and depth of soundstage that is great
  • Want for a tick more dynamic slam
  • One of only two DACs that matched or bettered the dCS on all tracks played
• Other:
  • I am keeping the MSB!

Summary: I only auditioned one DAC that I just did not like. Out of respect I have omitted it. I could have lived with any of the above DACs. The MSB and the Wadax were uniquely great at everything I played. The dCS is awesome with processed music and classical. The Lampizator continues to be curious to me as it was literally magical that first day! I am admittedly impatient and a bit compulsive - I maybe cut the cord too quick. I was close to buying the Wadax but the MSB was so very good that I just could not rationalize the price delta. In other words, price was somewhat always in the mix. But, I was ready to buy any of these and if the Wadax had been noticeably stronger I would have bought it. I wish I could have A|B'd it to the MSB and even the Lampi. But, when I heard the MSB I felt it sounded as good from memory as anything and that was it.

Thanks so much for such an extraordinary comparison.
The other DAC that matched or bettered the DCS on all tracks was the Horizon, is that right? A direct comparison of MSB Select II vs Horizon would be very interesting, and not just because these are two different technologys - Tube vs SS

 

[Phantom-Audio]

Aries Cerat Stuff always seems impressive but never had the chance to hear them. Would love to try the Aries Cerat top Digital Units, the build quality alone looks like a battle ship.

Iv owned the MSB Select and The Playback Design Dreams Series together for some time and eventually kept the Playback Design over the MSB.
The MSB is no slouch.

But i agree with the OP: I prefered the MSB Over DCS.

I found the DCS cold to my liking. Lacked that touch where one would consider it musically enjoyable. However, i feel DCS DACs will perform in Studio Systems.

 

[Phantom-Audio]

The Server/Streamer also makes a big difference on the DAC overall performance, Iv built many streamers now to understand that even the Software running it makes a difference as much as the Power supply.

I think the Aries Cerat NUC Option is not optimum to test such a system. This DAC prob deserved a better Streamer!

You have to listen to a Playback Design Dream Series, they are outstanding DACs.

 

[Phantom-Audio]

Never Heard the Wadax but at that price point for a digital system, just don't have the interest either.

Not heard the Lampizator but when it comes to DACs, Overlly coloured Tube sound is not my thing. Euphonic sound is pleasing to the ear but sometimes i do find out rather boring as it can sound overly smoothed out and rounded off with no bite. I wonder if lampi can handle very dynamic content.

I still think the OP should try out the Playback design.

 

[Kingrex]

The Server/Streamer also makes a big difference on the DAC overall performance, Iv built many streamers now to understand that even the Software running it makes a difference as much as the Power supply.

I think the Aries Cerat NUC Option is not optimum to test such a system. This DAC prob deserved a better Streamer!

A big topic that seems to get swept under the rug. People love their DAC. DAC get a lot more attention than does the source equipment. I really like my Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC. Very very good for the money. But even Ben the owner tells me to get a highly optimized CD player and feed the DAC via BNC. He says it slays the USB input from a server. Basically I am leaving a lot on the plate. I am not going back to CD, but I do wish I had a better source such as a SD player to utilize my 2000 or so ripped CD.

 

[Hyperion]

After some years within this business, you learn to appreciate the truly genuine companies and the people behind them. Manufacturers who are driven by passion showing true integrity in everything they do. Andreas Koch at Playback Design is one of those people. I would also like to mention Demetris Backlavas at Ypsilon as another, as well as Konstantinos Pilios at Pilium, Sven Boenicke at Boenicke and Julien Pelchat at Verity - to name only a few. When you're dealing with these gentlemen, you know that you will get high value products (no matter the price level) backed up by the highest level of professionalism.

Sorry for the off topic rant @pk_LA

/ Marcus, www.perfect-sense.se

 

[worldwide]

Hi Everyone,



First, I would like to be very clear and say that we are the Aries Cerat North American distributor/importers for Canada and the US.



My personal testing goes back more than 40 years and I have been A/B testing different audio products with five other extremely knowledgeable audiophiles for the past 20 years. Some of the most interesting A/B testing that we have done is on DAC’s and on servers/streamers. The systems that we are doing this testing on are not your average systems and the least expensive system is $200,000 but a couple of the systems are getting close to $1 million. When we do our testing, we make sure that the rooms are set up properly and that everything from the panel right out to the speakers have as little effect on the overall test results as possible.



We have done direct A/B testing on the Lampizator Horizon, Select 2, Aries Cerat Helene, Aries Cerat Kassanda Reference 2 and Aries Cerat Kassandra Signature. Altogether we have A/B tested almost 100 different DAC’s. There were lots of disappointments and to be honest with you if you are using analog as your reference there were very few DAC’s that have the harmonics or resolution of a turntable. However, when you add in a world-class server/streamer then this can be the game changer and get you much closer to an analog sounding front-end. By adding in a very high-quality server/streamer then you are essentially allowing the DAC to perform at a much higher level. Unfortunately, again there are very few world-class server/streamers. We found that when the server/streamer was set up proper and we used euphony and stylus with a lossless format that we could obtain an almost analog sound with the properly matched world class DAC and the very essential digital cable between the two devices. Without a world class server/streamer you will never achieve the ambience or the nuances of the original recording. It is a combination of a great DAC and a world-class server streamer with a well designed digital cable that allows a digital front end to have the harmonics and resolution of a properly set up turntable. Analog setups and digital setups are extremely difficult to get correct but once you achieve a world-class front end then you are one step closer to hearing the original recording as it was produced at the recording studio. In my opinion this should be everybody’s goal.



We do not advertise with what’s best forum so our results were definitely different then the co-owner/Ron and I hope that this post can stay up and running even though our results were different. As an importer/distributor we have criteria’s when we decide were going to import certain products from Europe. One of the main criteria is build quality. The Aries Cerat 132-pound Kassandra Reference DAC is the best built DAC that we have experienced and all Aries Cerat products are built to last decades. If you look at build quality among the DAC’s that Ron tested there would be no comparison. Next if we start to talk about sound quality and use analog as our reference we do agree with some of the references that Ron used in his post and I felt that it was well worded. However, I would say that if Ron had put the DAC’s side-by-side and did the direct comparisons that we did, then the outcome would be slightly different as it was in our testing. I would be happy to invite Ron to my place in Canada or if California is closer to our store that is properly set up in the California area. I would also be interested to see what would happen when Ron tested the Aries Cerat Signature which retails for roughly the same price as the Horizon versus testing the Aries Cerat Reference model that retails for half the price of the Horizon. When we did our testing the Aries Cerat Reference had more detail than the Horizon, more accurate bass and deeper bass than the Horizon and is much better built than the Horizon. There was also major difference in terms the musically but that could be a long conversation so I will save it for another time.



The last thing I would like to say is that audio can be personal preference. I personally like to find reference equipment that allows me to get closer to the original recording. I know I’m getting closer to the original recording when I can hear the ambience in the recording studio. There are little nuances that will happen in recordings that just aren’t there until you take that next step closer in terms of sound quality. There’s an old saying I like to use “you don’t know what you don’t know “. The truth is I have learned a huge amount about audio from listening to world class audio designers and in my opinion the owner of Aries Cerat is possibly one of the most brilliant audio designers in the industry today.



All the Best Robert Neill