Vibration Management

One last video showing music not affecting the amps. One thing to note, the floor space between the speakers is pretty quiet so I had to crank up the sensitivity of the accelerometer.



2nd video has more bass.
 
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One last video showing music not affecting the amps. One thing to note, the floor space between the speakers is pretty quiet so I had to crank up the sensitivity of the accelerometer.



2nd video has more bass.

Guten Tag Herr Kommissar,

I see you have 100 Hz sample rate, which has Nyquist at 50 Hz.
And a few posts up you mention spring rates and the natural, or resonant, frequency.
It may be interesting to use higher sampling rates, and a stiffer spring should transfer more of the high frequency vibration up into the amps.
I suspect it is not much, and the amps are heavy, so it it mostly academic… but it would be somewhat of a reason to go with a softer spring.
Probably resonant frequency under the audible range, (<15 Hz) would be fine, and I doubt that the microphonics are really a problem when the frequency is low, but… that is a guess.
 
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Right away I want to clarify something. The properties of rubber makes it primarily a damper, ie the rubber converts mechanical energy into heat. Rubber can isolate as well by absorbing energy but only in specific frequency ranges dependent upon material properties such as hardness, shape and the load placed on it. And also note that the damping and isolation properties of rubber are nonlinear. That makes it difficult to predict how it will perform. And the nonlinear nature of rubber can cause what we hear as colorations. So yes, rubber can function as an isolator but with these aforementioned caveats.

Spring/mass systems isolate, are linear and therefore do not add colorations- I could be wrong but I cannot think of an example where that is the case. You can find some graphs online showing the response ratio of a spring/mass systems vs frequency. The response ratio peaks at the natural frequency and then drops off asymptotically towards zero. Rubber materials do not behave that way.

It is the nature of things to absorb vibrations and convert them into heat. In my video you can see the sinusoidal wave decay to zero after a few oscillations when I pushed on my preamp with my finger. That’s the hysteresis in the spring wire absorbing that energy and converting it into heat- and also the spring wire outside diameter rubbing against the wood down in the holes which is friction being converted into heat. And then I have tubes and class A amps converting electricity into heat. No wonder my room gets hot.
So much to respond to but I'll only address two things.

1. You do realize that the isolation i.e. shock and impact methodology you follow is kinda' all over the map, right? For example. For that component do this, for this component do that, same for this weight category vs that weight category, springs here, absorbers there, etc. all resulitng in better here, worse there, 2 steps forward and 1 step backward, pros and cons, ad nauseam. Oh, and for all the unwanted resonant energy that still slipped thru the cracks, your soft rubber objects convert those nasties to harmless heat. Serously? Isn't this strategy a bit of a bottomless and nebulous rabbit hole? Is that any way for an appropriate methodology to behave?

Answer me this. Do you see any similarities between your strategy and results here and the strategy and results of those who are convinced the room (including aftermarket acoustic treatments) is THE most important component of any playback config?

2. Of the 3 primary sources of unwanted vibrations, you and perhaps everybody else claim that floor-borne vibrations are your system’s biggest enemy and secondarily presumably air-borne vibrations, right?

To show how little floor- and air-borne vibrations impact my (and your) system’s resolution I’ll list just few items that contrast your claims…

- I’ve two 15-inch subwoofers solidly anchored to the sub-floor via my custom points.

- My custom racking system is solidly anchored to the subfloor also via my custom points.

- Both subs’ nearest anchoring points are probably no more than 20-inches from my rack’s closest anchoring point i.e. where my points protrude solidly into the sub-floor.

- It’s entirely possible two or perhaps all 3 objects are sharing the same sub-flooring plywood panel, perhaps even sharing the same floor joist or 2.

- I often times listen near perceived live performance volume levels.

- I’ve no rubber or other soft compounds used anywhere that might compromise sonic performance. Only metal-to-metal interfaces. In fact, the metal-to-metal is so vice-like tight, I like to say they are just short of welding disparate metal objects.

All cardinal sins to the isolationist (shock and impact) crowd, right?

We know that floor- and air-borne vibrations fluctuate like a yo-yo as even your video showing your accelerometer readings confirmed that truth.

But if there was any truth whatsoever to your isolation/shock-and-impact claims, then why isn’t my system’s resolution also fluctuating like a yo-yo here? Why isn't yours or anybody else's?

IMO, isolation belongs entirely to the shock-and-impact side of the fence which has zero to do with managing unwanted resonant energy at our sensitive instruments. As such, I consider vibration isolation i.e. shock and impact in high-end audio and everything associated with it a four-letter word and never use the term isolation in a positive sense - not even with turntables. Simply because the methodology and its principles for which I adhere, apply universally the same to all sensitive instruments without any consideration for any limitations whatsoever and without any cons whatsover. Oh, and the sonic results are also without limit. I'm guessing that's pretty much what one ought to expect when applying the appropriate methodology to the appropriate industry while staying within its principles.

If you’re listening via a mac and headphones, max volume should be most engaging and most telling.
 
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So much to respond to but I'll only address two things.

1. You do realize that the isolation i.e. shock and impact methodology you follow is kinda' all over the map, right? For example. For that component do this, for this component do that, same for this weight category vs that weight category, springs here, absorbers there, etc. all resulitng in better here, worse there, 2 steps forward and 1 step backward, pros and cons, ad nauseam. Oh, and for all the unwanted resonant energy that still slipped thru the cracks, your soft rubber objects convert those nasties to harmless heat. Serously? Isn't this strategy a bit of a bottomless and nebulous rabbit hole? Is that any way for an appropriate methodology to behave?

Answer me this. Do you see any similarities between your strategy and results here and the strategy and results of those who are convinced the room (including aftermarket acoustic treatments) is THE most important component of any playback config?

2. Of the 3 primary sources of unwanted vibrations, you and perhaps everybody else claim that floor-borne vibrations are your system’s biggest enemy and secondarily presumably air-borne vibrations, right?

To show how little floor- and air-borne vibrations impact my (and your) system’s resolution I’ll list just few items that contrast your claims…

- I’ve two 15-inch subwoofers solidly anchored to the sub-floor via my custom points.

- My custom racking system is solidly anchored to the subfloor also via my custom points.

- Both subs’ nearest anchoring points are probably no more than 20-inches from my rack’s closest anchoring point i.e. where my points protrude solidly into the sub-floor.

- It’s entirely possible two or perhaps all 3 objects are sharing the same sub-flooring plywood panel, perhaps even sharing the same floor joist or 2.

- I often times listen near perceived live performance volume levels.

- I’ve no rubber or other soft compounds used anywhere that might compromise sonic performance. Only metal-to-metal interfaces. In fact, the metal-to-metal is so vice-like tight, I like to say they are just short of welding disparate metal objects.

All cardinal sins to the isolationist (shock and impact) crowd, right?

We know that floor- and air-borne vibrations fluctuate like a yo-yo as even your video showing your accelerometer readings confirmed that truth.

But if there was any truth whatsoever to your isolation/shock-and-impact claims, then why isn’t my system’s resolution also fluctuating like a yo-yo here? Why isn't yours or anybody else's?

IMO, isolation belongs entirely to the shock-and-impact side of the fence which has zero to do with managing unwanted resonant energy at our sensitive instruments. As such, I consider vibration isolation i.e. shock and impact in high-end audio and everything associated with it a four-letter word and never use the term isolation in a positive sense - not even with turntables. Simply because the methodology and its principles for which I adhere, apply universally the same to all sensitive instruments without any consideration for any limitations whatsoever and without any cons whatsover. Oh, and the sonic results are also without limit. I'm guessing that's pretty much what one ought to expect when applying the appropriate methodology to the appropriate industry while staying within its principles.

If you’re listening via a mac and headphones, max volume should be most engaging and most telling.

Stehno, Do you also clamp your speakers to the subfloor?
 
2. Of the 3 primary sources of unwanted vibrations, you and perhaps everybody else claim that floor-borne vibrations are your system’s biggest enemy and secondarily presumably air-borne vibrations, right?

To show how little floor- and air-borne vibrations impact my (and your) system’s resolution I’ll list just few items that contrast your claims…

- I’ve two 15-inch subwoofers solidly anchored to the sub-floor via my custom points.

- My custom racking system is solidly anchored to the subfloor also via my custom points.

- Both subs’ nearest anchoring points are probably no more than 20-inches from my rack’s closest anchoring point i.e. where my points protrude solidly into the sub-floor.
Your subs are coupled to the floor making your floor a passive radiator. If your speakers are on spikes then they too are making the floor a passive radiator. If you like how that sounds, that's great. Ever try isolating your speakers and subs from the floor? You might like it. First rule of Audio: Your system sounds great- until you hear something better.

Many speaker manufacturers sell their speakers with spikes. Seems like then, that is the right way to go. I had my speakers on spikes for decades. Then I tried spring isolation and was blown away by the clarity, sharper imaging and increased resolution. Would never go back. The picture below shows my HT subs on spring isolation platforms. The bass clarity and punch was very much improved by isolating my subs from the floor. The difference- now I could here how the bass was muddied when the subs were sitting directly on the floor- on spikes or the rubber footers it made no difference.


Sub on springs.jpg
 
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Your subs are coupled to the floor making your floor a passive radiator. If your speakers are on spikes then they too are making the floor a passive radiator. If you like how that sounds, that's great. Ever try isolating your speakers and subs from the floor? You might like it. First rule of Audio: Your system sounds great- until you hear something better.

Many speaker manufacturers sell their speakers with spikes. Seems like then, that is the right way to go. I had my speakers on spikes for decades. Then I tried spring isolation and was blown away by the clarity, sharper imaging and increased resolution. Would never go back. The picture below shows my HT subs on spring isolation platforms. The bass clarity and punch was very much improved by isolating my subs from the floor. The difference- now I could here how the bass was muddied when the subs were sitting directly on the floor- on spikes or the rubber footers it made no difference.


View attachment 138358

Without some accelerometer readings it is difficult to be too sure.
The subs in the picture will generally have the cone moving in say the Y axis.
And the floor is most springy in the vertical, or Z axis.
With two subs in a cabinet opposing each other, then the forces largely cancel anyhow, so it is unclear whether a whole lot remains going into the floor.
 
The forces do not cancel. They will be out of phase.
 
if they are opposed on the apposite cabinet wall, then they cancel.

I found a picture of an example.
 
And based on your logic, the sub has no sound output.
 
And based on your logic, the sub has no sound output.
FYI: The Ripol subwoofer design has dual opposing drivers:



 
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And based on your logic, the sub has no sound output.
I think your thoughts are based upon your logic.
I am confident that my logic is more sound. ;)

The only force input to the floor would be from the pressure of the sound above the floor, and not from the mechanical coupling through the interface..

FYI: The Ripol subwoofer design has dual opposing woofers:



Thanks for translating it for @TonyW
 
- My custom racking system is solidly anchored to the subfloor also via my custom points.

I'm having a hard time finding descriptions or images of your custom solutions, which you are mentioning a lot.
It does sound interesting, and I'd appreciate it if you could maybe post a link to your website or postings that explain your approach.
 
An excellent 8-minute explanation, by the late great Max Townshend, of the benefits of isolation through springs can be found at https://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/. It is worth viewing, especially by people who, like I used to be, are die-hard believers of spiking speakers and other equipment. I was intrigued by this explanation, and by the many people whose experiences with the Townshend Speaker Podiums was extremely positive (to put it mildly), so I ordered a pair for some small Magico A3 speakers that I used to own.

The improvement in the sound from the Gaia Isoacoustic footers I had previously used was immediate and profound: tighter and faster bass, higher resolution and clarity in the mids and highs and faster attacks and more delicate decays on piano notes and cymbols. In other words, these Townshend Speaker Podiums transformed an entry level speaker into a completely higher level of performance. Once you actually hear the improvement, you realize what you have been missing.

I sold the A3s several years ago and replaced them with the much more expensive Tidal Audio Contriva G2 speakers. These sit on Revopod footers, which I think are very good, but I have a nagging sense the Contrivas could be better on a spring isolation device such as a larger set of Speaker Podiums, Wellfloat Deltas or the Soundkaos Vibra 68s. The Speaker Podiums would be too large and unacceptable from the all-important WAF perspective, so that leaves me with only the Wellfloat or Soundkaos options, both of which are expensive simply to test (I've been told that the Contrivas are so well designed and built that footers won't make much, if any difference.) I'm also not sure whether either of the Wellfloat Deltas or Soundkaos Vibra 68s, unlike the Townshend Speaker Podiums, would allow leveling since the Contrivas have more of a weight load in the rear.

I also have a Dohmann Helix 2 turntable, which has a Minus K isolation system incorporated into it -- again, this is a highly effective isolation device, and this turntable outperforms every other turntable I have heard. I bought this after hearing how much better it sounded than my longtime TT, the spiked TW Acoustic Raven AC1. From personal experience, I am sold on the benefits of properly designed and implemented isolation.

Just my 2 cents' worth.
 
It is old news that decoupling is the superior approach, so I don't know why it is being rehashed. Spiking or other rigid connection to the floor provides a two way path for vibration unless the spikes (or whatever) sit in/on something that absorbs/dissipates vibration, shutting off the "return trip" (i.e., decoupling). Even concrete, dense as it is, reflects vibration back up through spikes/rigid couplers. Vibration management isn't rocket science. It has always involved two issues - isolating components from external vibrations, the value of which is demonstrated in Townshend's video on the subject, and draining/dissipating internal component resonances. As I've stated previously there are many devices that do both to some extent but I have found that using different tools for each in combination produces superior results because no single device I've found is equally good at both. With speakers there is the additional issue that if they are rigidly coupled to the floor driver generated vibrations are forced to resonate through the cabinet, smearing the sound. Devices that allow the cabinet to deflect ("float") in response to driver movements (e.g., Townshend, Welfloat, Isoacoustics, etc.) mitigate this issue.
 
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I'm also not sure whether either of the Wellfloat Deltas or Soundkaos Vibra 68s, unlike the Townshend Speaker Podiums, would allow leveling since the Contrivas have more of a weight load in the rear.
Hi - own both and each performs very differently in my system.

The SK's "squish" a bit and if you have one side that is heavier it may lean towards that side.

The Delta's do not so for heavier unequal loads I found the delta's to be easier for me to set up.

They also have different sounds from each other - so you'd need to try them and see if you like they way they sound.
 
Hi - own both and each performs very differently in my system.

The SK's "squish" a bit and if you have one side that is heavier it may lean towards that side.

The Delta's do not so for heavier unequal loads I found the delta's to be easier for me to set up.

They also have different sounds from each other - so you'd need to try them and see if you like they way they sound.
The Wellfloat devices do not have an adjustable mechanism for leveling. Unlike spring based designs they do not "squish" under uneven loads.
 

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