Vibration Management

[Cellcbern]

Thanks for those links. I read some other reviews on their Babel product too. No question they know what they are doing. Regarding that Delta discussion: Note the link showing the FFT plots and IMD calculations with and without the Delta footers. Frankly that difference in IMD is negligible from an audible standpoint. And I think that was output at the phono cartridge with the Delta footers on the speakers. A better comparison might have been a microphone set up at the listening position to see how the final outcome sounds.

I believe isolation with springs is neutral, ie it does not affect tone or timber of the component. Rather it clarifies by removing destructive reflections that can add or subtract to/from the music which can be interpreted as coloration sometimes. Dampers can subtract but also can and will color the sound of a component. That's not necessarily bad- we tend to want to tune our system to our own specific sound preferences. That's why I like to get out and hear other hifi systems to compare and assure myself that I have not strayed from the high fidelity path. I also like to get feedback from others about how my system sounds. It is not always good feedback but I appreciate that (unless it's my brother) and end up making my system sound better.

At this point my expectation is that I will not hear much difference between my spring isolation setup and the Well Float board, but I am usually wrong. When I put the Gaia footers on my Thiel speakers I found they did not completely isolate my speakers from the floor like my spring platforms but the Gaia footers made my speakers sound better. So I keep an open mind. The goal is always better sound, more music.

Since you are open to experimentation you may want to try different footers designed to drain/dissipate/tune internal component resonances in combination with your Wellfloat platform, and for comparison, in combination with your damped spring feet under a board. Your damped spring feet mostly provide decoupling - they do little to drain/dissipate internal component resonances. Note that many high end components have feet that are cheaply made,which provide minimal decoupling (e.g., with different material than the casework and a polymer or rubber pad). It follows that in most cases if you put an isolation footer under a component's factory feet you guarantee that it won't drain/dissipate internal component resonances effectively. Every serious device I'm aware of for draining/dissipating internal component resonances is designed to either replace the factory feet (screw in) or to otherwise be placed directly against the chassis bottom. If you look at the Mechanical Vibration Management section of the Audio Exotics website for example you will see that even though they offer/use "world's best" isolation devices (none of which use springs), they use them in combination because some are better at decoupling and others at draining/dissipating/tuning internal component resonances.

 

[Synaxis]

Since you are open to experimentation you may want to try different footers designed to drain/dissipate/tune internal component resonances in combination with your Wellfloat platform, and for comparison, in combination with your damped spring feet under a board. Your damped spring feet mostly provide decoupling - they do little to drain/dissipate internal component resonances. Note that many high end components have feet that are cheaply made,which provide minimal decoupling (e.g., with different material than the casework and a polymer or rubber pad). It follows that in most cases if you put an isolation footer under a component's factory feet you guarantee that it won't drain/dissipate internal component resonances effectively. Every serious device I'm aware of for draining/dissipating internal component resonances is designed to be placed directly against the chassis bottom. If you look at the Mechanical Vibration Management section of the Audio Exotics website for example you will see that even though they offer/use "world's best" isolation devices (none of which use springs), they use them in combination because some are better at decoupling and others at draining/dissipating/tuning internal component resonances.

To this point I am currently running RevOpods under my gear and that is sitting on top of a Well-Float platform.

 

[LL21]

To this point I am currently running RevOpods under my gear and that is sitting on top of a Well-Float platform.

Interesting...we found a second hand set of SRA platforms specifically designed and calibrated for our Zanden 4-box digital. Works really well.

And then we found:
- putting ANY kind of damping plate on TOP of the Zanden messed up the sound with the SRAs (ie, they really ARE calibrated for the exact dimensions and weight (and apparently weight distribution) of the Zanden)

However, we then found:
- putting the Zanden/SRA together on top of an HRS M3X platform instead of just on the main 3" thick birch ply rack made a significant improvement. (ie dont mess up the interface between the SRA and component...but placing them BOTH TOGETHER on a more vibration-proof surface was an improvement.

In some respects, it makes perfect sense. The HRS M3X shelf is designed to sit on any kind of 'regular shelf or floor' and create a more vibration-insulated 'floor' for the equipment.

Look forward to hearing how your RevOpods and Well-Float combination work.

 

[Cellcbern]

Interesting...we found a second hand set of SRA platforms specifically designed and calibrated for our Zanden 4-box digital. Works really well.

And then we found:
- putting ANY kind of damping plate on TOP of the Zanden messed up the sound with the SRAs (ie, they really ARE calibrated for the exact dimensions and weight (and apparently weight distribution) of the Zanden)

However, we then found:
- putting the Zanden/SRA together on top of an HRS M3X platform instead of just on the main 3" thick birch ply rack made a significant improvement. (ie dont mess up the interface between the SRA and component...but placing them BOTH TOGETHER on a more vibration-proof surface was an improvement.

In some respects, it makes perfect sense. The HRS M3X shelf is designed to sit on any kind of 'regular shelf or floor' and create a more vibration-insulated 'floor' for the equipment.

Look forward to hearing how your RevOpods and Well-Float combination work.

FYI - two different Zanden/SRA/Wellfloat/Rev-O-Pod combos at Audio Exotics, and Wellfloat Delta and Rev-O-Pods used together under speakers:

 

[LL21]

FYI - two different Zanden/SRA/Wellfloat/Rev-O-Pod combos at Audio Exotics, and Wellfloat Delta and Rev-O-Pods used together under speakers:

Thank you. I would have thought they would have had to had SRA spec their shelf including the WellFloat Delta and the RevOPods. Assuming they did, probably pretty amazing.

 

[Cellcbern]

To this point I am currently running RevOpods under my gear and that is sitting on top of a Well-Float platform.

Best I've heard is the Dalby Audio D7 LVSE90 feet between component and Wellfloat platform.

 

[LL21]

Best I've heard is the Dalby Audio D7 LVSE90 feet between component and Wellfloat platform.

Fascinating...have read great things about Dalby but never heard.

 

[TonyW]

The Wellfloat platform arrived this afternoon. I installed it under my preamp. See attached photos. I wasn't going to take measurements at first so as not to bias my judgment but I couldn't help myself. It doesn't isolate as well as the spring platform but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. When I thump the floor I see a big peak at 12-14 Hz and smaller peaks at 41 and 49 Hz. Compare that to my spring isolation platform that has a single, lower peak at 6 Hz. I was surprised to see this platform has no feet on the bottom. The bottom board just rests directly on the shelf, right?

First listening impressions: I have been listening with this Wellfloat platform under my preamp for 2 hours now. I played some well worn songs that I am familiar with. First thing I noticed is midrange seems a bit faster. Voices are a little crisper. Highs are the same- clear but not fatiguing. The bass sometimes seemed softer to me on some songs. It just seemed like some places didn't have the kick in the bass that I'm used to. I played some tracks over but then I felt more unsure about the difference.

Overall, the Wellfloat platform sounds very close to my self designed spring isolation platforms. I feel like I could use a denser board vs the butcherblock board that I am using with springs and I might get that bit of crisper mids that I hear with the Wellfloat. I might try that.

Next step: I wil listen more this evening and then tomorrow I plan to put the Wellfloat platform under my DAC. My 86 lb DAC. Is that not dedication on my part?

 

[Cellcbern]

The Wellfloat platform arrived this afternoon. I installed it under my preamp. See attached photos. I wasn't going to take measurements at first so as not to bias my judgment but I couldn't help myself. It doesn't isolate as well as the spring platform but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. When I thump the floor I see a big peak at 12-14 Hz and smaller peaks at 41 and 49 Hz. Compare that to my spring isolation platform that has a single, lower peak at 6 Hz. I was surprised to see this platform has no feet on the bottom. The bottom board just rests directly on the shelf, right?

First listening impressions: I have been listening with this Wellfloat platform under my preamp for 2 hours now. I played some well worn songs that I am familiar with. First thing I noticed is midrange seems a bit faster. Voices are a little crisper. Highs are the same- clear but not fatiguing. The bass sometimes seemed softer to me on some songs. It just seemed like some places didn't have the kick in the bass that I'm used to. I played some tracks over but then I felt more unsure about the difference.

Overall, the Wellfloat platform sounds very close to my self designed spring isolation platforms. I feel like I could use a denser board vs the butcherblock board that I am using with springs and I might get that bit of crisper mids that I hear with the Wellfloat. I might try that.

Next step: I wil listen more this evening and then tomorrow I plan to put the Wellfloat platform under my DAC. My 86 lb DAC. Is that not dedication on my part?





View attachment 135449View attachment 135450

What does "thumping the floor" equate to in electronically reproduced music?

 

[TonyW]

What does "thumping the floor" equate to in electronically reproduced music?

Mechanically transmitted vibrations.

 

[TonyW]

I took a two hour break. Had some dinner and took a walk. The sun went down and ambient noise levels dropped. I snuggled into the darkness to listen to more music. Now the midrange magic of the Wellfloat platform did shine. It sounds good. The bass is good. Maybe things needed to settle a bit. I have strong visceral bass. I am regretting taking the Wellfloat out from under the preamp tomorrow but I want to hear the DAC with it. Could I be ordering a second Wellfloat? We'll see.

 

[Holmz]

… I snuggled into the darkness to listen to more music. Now the midrange magic of the Wellfloat platform did shine…

^that^ reminds me of a Greek discourse on Erebus (Darkness) and Hemera (“Day”).

 

[pdubya]

Could I be ordering a second Wellfloat? We'll see.

Hi Tony
If you don’t mind, ordering from where?
Thanks
Parker

 

[TonyW]

Hi Tony
If you don’t mind, ordering from where?
Thanks
Parker

The website is ZenPlus.jp
This is the description. They platform arrived in less than a week from my order date.

AIRBOW Well Float Board WFB-4449-150 (1 unit) (440 x 490 mm / height approx. 58 mm / load capacity 150 kg * standard model)​

 

[TonyW]

Latest update: I swapped out the Wellfloat platform this morning and replaced it with a high density wood board and my springs. The bass is definitely better in this configuration vs with the Wellfloat. The difference was clear to me this morning. The midrange magic is still there with the high density board and the highs are just ever so slightly warmer than with the Wellfloat, which I don’t mind. I think I will stick with this configuration under my preamp. The butcher block platforms were a bad idea. Live and learn.
With a little help I got the Wellfloat installed under my DAC. The Wellfloat shows better isolation under the DAC than it did under the preamp. I’m sure that is due to the difference in weight- 86 lbs vs 37 lbs. It puts some load on those springs/cables. Rated max capacity of the Wellfloat is 331 lbs.

I plan to listen this evening after the sun goes down.

 

[Synaxis]

Latest update: I swapped out the Wellfloat platform this morning and replaced it with a high density wood board and my springs. The bass is definitely better in this configuration vs with the Wellfloat. The difference was clear to me this morning. The midrange magic is still there with the high density board and the highs are just ever so slightly warmer than with the Wellfloat, which I don’t mind. I think I will stick with this configuration under my preamp. The butcher block platforms were a bad idea. Live and learn.
With a little help I got the Wellfloat installed under my DAC. The Wellfloat shows better isolation under the DAC than it did under the preamp. I’m sure that is due to the difference in weight- 86 lbs vs 37 lbs. It puts some load on those springs/cables. Rated max capacity of the Wellfloat is 331 lbs.

I plan to listen this evening after the sun goes down.
View attachment 135483

Thanks for sharing your findings, Tony!

 

[TonyW]

The Wellfloat platform is good for my DAC. It was an exciting night of listening to music. The Wellfloat platform under my DAC gave me about a half step more mid range clarity as compared to the added clarity I got by adding a high density wood board under my preamp (same as what the Wellfloat did for the preamp). But the Wellfloat also increased clarity down into the mid bass. One thing I noticed right away last night is the bodies of instruments have a bit more solidity. The Wellfloat added more detail to the music. I heard some sounds in songs that I had not heard before- and my system was already very detailed. I heard no deficit in the bass with the Wellfloat under the DAC.

I am appreciative of these forums where the exchange of ideas results in better Hifi, more enjoyable listening sessions. It is important to always keep an open mind and be willing to try new things. And the Wellfloat platform looks good under my DAC.

Now I wonder if I should scrap the butcher block shelves in my equipment rack in favor of some high density wood. It is something I had thought about in the past but now seems important. I know all of my components are removed from the equipment shelves with their individual platforms but everything matters, right?

 

[Cellcbern]

The Wellfloat platform is good for my DAC. It was an exciting night of listening to music. The Wellfloat platform under my DAC gave me about a half step more mid range clarity as compared to the added clarity I got by adding a high density wood board under my preamp (same as what the Wellfloat did for the preamp). But the Wellfloat also increased clarity down into the mid bass. One thing I noticed right away last night is the bodies of instruments have a bit more solidity. The Wellfloat added more detail to the music. I heard some sounds in songs that I had not heard before- and my system was already very detailed. I heard no deficit in the bass with the Wellfloat under the DAC.

I am appreciative of these forums where the exchange of ideas results in better Hifi, more enjoyable listening sessions. It is important to always keep an open mind and be willing to try new things. And the Wellfloat platform looks good under my DAC.

Now I wonder if I should scrap the butcher block shelves in my equipment rack in favor of some high density wood. It is something I had thought about in the tpast but now seems important. I know all of my components are removed from the equipment shelves with their individual platforms but everything matters, right?

You should hear further improvements if you add footers that drain/dissipate/tune internal component resonances between your DAC and the Wellfloat platform. As I've noted I've found the Dalby D7-LVSE90 and ASI Top Line to be the very best, but there are others ranging from the inexpensive Yamamoto ebony cones/cups (a brass spike disc with ebony cone reduces warmth) to Stillpoints, which like all metal feet I've heard add a subtle hardness to the sound. Here is an example of a footer designed specifically to drain/dissipate internal component resonances - note the (somewhat exaggerated in my view) explanation:

https://nordost.com/sort-systems/sort-kone.php

If you are using a decoupling platform or footers between components and shelves the butcher block should be fine. If you are placing components directly on a shelf l suggest bamboo which absorbs/dissipates vibrational energy in is fibrous structures, together with footers that "drain" internal component resonances to the shelf. Note that dense tone wood feet like ebony and Lignum Vitae do several things: 1) conduct/transmit vibrational energy almost as well as metals, 2) Absorb/dissipate vibrational energy within their pore structure, and 3) resonate in a way that tunes a component's resonant signature to be more sympathetic to music. Note that audio design "jedi master" Lee Dalby describes the big Lignum Vitae disc of the LVSE90 as a resonance "reservoir". Note also his use extensive use of ebony and lignum vitae wood in the Akasa turntable and his description of the intrinsic sound character of different materials (link below).

You can get reasonably priced custom cut bamboo online from cutting board companies.

FYI: https://audioexotics.vanillacommuni...kasu-the-making-of-a-legend-by-lee-paul-dalby

 

[TonyW]

I had an exciting evening of listening last night. I have been working on my isolation platform design for my preamp these past few weeks experimenting with different materials and honing my fabrication skills. My current iteration of Acacia wood, 1.2" thick and (4) 11 lb/in springs (McMaster-Carr P/N 9434K142) yielded the best bass and second best mid/highs clarity. The Bamboo board I tried had just slightly more mid range clarity. But last night I thought to try some brass cones under the front of my preamp. I left the back feet of the preamp engaged with the platform. Mid range clarity improved and exceeded the performance of the bamboo board. The bass also got better. Then I thought to put my amps on cones. So I lifted the amps onto cones but just high enough to let the rubber feet on the amps still touch their platforms. So almost all of the weight is on the cones but just a little weight remain on the rubber feet. I cannot slip a piece of paper under the rubber feet.

Here's what happened: The bass is like I have never heard it before. The bass is so clear and deep. The mid/highs clarity is splendid. But the most surprising result of all is PRAT. The rhythm and pace of the music went up a notch. It was a night where I could not stop listening to music.

My summary: Isolation of the amp/preamp/DAC is critical. Effective Isolation can be achieved only through the use of springs. My spring isolation platform stops all vibrations coming from the floor that are above 3.2 Hz from reaching the preamp and amps. Elastomers provide needed damping but must be applied with care. Too much damping, as I found with my preamp will smear the mids/vocals. I can build a math model for isolation easy enough but I am not smart enough to build a math model that takes into account the nonlinearities of elastomeric materials. In other words, it is an iterative experimental process- ie. try something and then try something else. And remember, the damping properties of elastomers are not just about the formulation but vary with the load on the elastomers (and shape of the elastomers).

I didn't think the feet on my preamp was smearing the mids (albeit only slightly) until I heard the preamp on brass cones. The same goes for my amps with the bass. It was an important discovery for me.

This is my preamp on the Acacia wood platform supported with a wood base that I painted black. Four springs support the platform and I have two cylindrical rods (Circuit board stops) mounted on the lower board that hold the assembly together when it is not under the preamp and also prevents the top platform from rolling off the springs. I can push laterally on the preamp about 1/8" and then it hits those stops. The two stops are 9" apart to prevent rotation or lateral movement of the top platform. The stops do not touch the top platform unless I push on the preamp.
The DAC remains on the Wellfloat platform.

 

[LL21]

I had an exciting evening of listening last night. I have been working on my isolation platform design for my preamp these past few weeks experimenting with different materials and honing my fabrication skills. My current iteration of Acacia wood, 1.2" thick and (4) 11 lb/in springs (McMaster-Carr P/N 9434K142) yielded the best bass and second best mid/highs clarity. The Bamboo board I tried had just slightly more mid range clarity. But last night I thought to try some brass cones under the front of my preamp. I left the back feet of the preamp engaged with the platform. Mid range clarity improved and exceeded the performance of the bamboo board. The bass also got better. Then I thought to put my amps on cones. So I lifted the amps onto cones but just high enough to let the rubber feet on the amps still touch their platforms. So almost all of the weight is on the cones but just a little weight remain on the rubber feet. I cannot slip a piece of paper under the rubber feet.

Here's what happened: The bass is like I have never heard it before. The bass is so clear and deep. The mid/highs clarity is splendid. But the most surprising result of all is PRAT. The rhythm and pace of the music went up a notch. It was a night where I could not stop listening to music.

My summary: Isolation of the amp/preamp/DAC is critical. Effective Isolation can be achieved only through the use of springs. My spring isolation platform stops all vibrations coming from the floor that are above 3.2 Hz from reaching the preamp and amps. Elastomers provide needed damping but must be applied with care. Too much damping, as I found with my preamp will smear the mids/vocals. I can build a math model for isolation easy enough but I am not smart enough to build a math model that takes into account the nonlinearities of elastomeric materials. In other words, it is an iterative experimental process- ie. try something and then try something else. And remember, the damping properties of elastomers are not just about the formulation but vary with the load on the elastomers (and shape of the elastomers).

I didn't think the feet on my preamp was smearing the mids (albeit only slightly) until I heard the preamp on brass cones. The same goes for my amps with the bass. It was an important discovery for me.

This is my preamp on the Acacia wood platform supported with a wood base that I painted black. Four springs support the platform and I have two cylindrical rods (Circuit board stops) mounted on the lower board that hold the assembly together when it is not under the preamp and also prevents the top platform from rolling off the springs. I can push laterally on the preamp about 1/8" and then it hits those stops. The two stops are 9" apart to prevent rotation or lateral movement of the top platform. The stops do not touch the top platform unless I push on the preamp.
The DAC remains on the Wellfloat platform.
View attachment 136782

Exceptional work and you've definitely added measurements to your iterative experiment. Many of us do not measure...including me. I have had measurements done, but I would definitely be in the camp of 'specificity without accuracy' if I pretended I could know what things to measure and how to measure them correctly, let alone interpret the readings correctly and then utilize the readings to then devise technical solutions.

Your own measurements have been great to read...thanks for taking the time to do that.

In my own experience at a more 'base level', I have indeed found iterative, disciplined listening and experimenting methodically has helped. I found specifically success with a certain amount of elastomer and feet worked well in isolation underneath...while a certain amount of massing also made changes which had to be evaluated very carefully, with different music and also over time. There is occasionally settling in...and I imagine among other things that materials themselves settle...particularly if one is putting weight on top of equipment that is on top of elastomers.

The isolation sandwiches we have devised came from pre-existing designed products that we believe have been well manufactured and do have recognizeable and repeatable effects on sound, detail, tonality. And as a result, have been able to maintain the original voice of the system throughout...while continuing to hone the quality of that voice over time as the equipment being isolated has continued to produce better rendering of their own sound.