Vibration Management

I disagree. The top plate is never compressed, deformed or stressed the way a leaf (or any) spring would be in the device's operation. It simply moves with the pendulum motion of the suspended wire. Having taken apart the Wellfloat Delta footers this is clear. And whether or not the semantics of things is that a wire is theoretically a spring, these pendulum motion suspended wire devices work differently from the damped coil spring devices that you provided photos of in your system, and as I've said are to my ears audibly superior.
Very cool design. Based on drawing there are multiple degrees of freedom. In the x and y-axis, the wire and the foam are the spring in the spring mass system. In the z-axis, it’s the foam assuming the brass plate is rigid. But at higher frequencies that brass plate will have resonance and harmonics, so technically that will act as a spring at its resonant frequency and beyond.

Not that any of that explains why it sounds good, ha!

And since we’re throwing around positions of authority, yes in my past life I did vibration management engineering for commercial products (not audio related though) :D
 
Very cool design. Based on drawing there are multiple degrees of freedom. In the x and y-axis, the wire and the foam are the spring in the spring mass system. In the z-axis, it’s the foam assuming the brass plate is rigid. But at higher frequencies that brass plate will have resonance and harmonics, so technically that will act as a spring at its resonant frequency and beyond.

Not that any of that explains why it sounds good, ha!

And since we’re throwing around positions of authority, yes in my past life I did vibration management engineering for commercial products (not audio related though) :D

Very cool design. Based on drawing there are multiple degrees of freedom. In the x and y-axis, the wire and the foam are the spring in the spring mass system. In the z-axis, it’s the foam assuming the brass plate is rigid. But at higher frequencies that brass plate will have resonance and harmonics, so technically that will act as a spring at its resonant frequency and beyond.

Not that any of that explains why it sounds good, ha!

And since we’re throwing around positions of authority, yes in my past life I did vibration management engineering for commercial products (not audio related though) :D
Authority? No-just critical listening experience.

Don't care why it sounds good - only that it does. And of course unlike posters who theorize and speculate about them, I actually use pendulum based isolation devices and have done head to head comparative listening tests against spring based and other designs.
 
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Incredible.
This is from their website. Note the word, "spring" in the text as well as in the diagrams. Their "pendulum based" design is a spring. How can it be any clearer than that?

Like I said, their compact design does not have room for the springs to move up and down, so they designed it to rock side to side. No matter which way it moves it is still a spring/mass isolation system. First rule of design engineering: If you can't fix it, feature it.
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This is a hallowed book for me. I inherited this book from an old engineer in 1983. I have designed a lot of springs using this book. I converted the formulas in this book into computer programs back in the day so that I could quickly optimize a design. I used my program to design the springs that are under my amps which I ordered from McMastercarr. This book explains how to design just about every type of spring used.


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I almost forgot about this: A spring design slide rule. (I inherited this too.) Used in the age before calculators and computers. This slide rule likely designed springs used in the engine controls of the early supersonic jet fighters. The other side of this slide rule calculates stress on the springs.
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Incredible.
This is from their website. Note the word, "spring" in the text as well as in the diagrams. Their "pendulum based" design is a spring. How can it be any clearer than that?

Like I said, their compact design does not have room for the springs to move up and down, so they designed it to rock side to side. No matter which way it moves it is still a spring/mass isolation system. First rule of design engineering: If you can't fix it, feature it.
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From the website:

Note in #3 that using "rubber or a spring" is listed as one of the roads not taken. At the end their approach is summarized as identical in function to suspending the speakers from the ceiling.

2. Fundamental mechanism 1 – Isolation between device and floor​


Putting the speakers directly on the floor or stands with no concern. Is that correct?
The energy of vibration is lost loss little by little as it travels through feet, stands, insulators or spikes, and the energy finally becomes zero when arrives at the ground. With each step different vibration and sub-harmonics will be added based on type of materials, weight, etc. and this will generate distortion at every point. Due to these accumulated distortions, the total output will be heavily distorted and coloured. You may feel some “strongness” or a “pushy sound” from the speakers standing directly on the floor, but this is based on the distortion not on the speakers’ true performance. Some people may like it for a short period of listening, but not for longer term enjoyment.
In order to resolve the issue, it is required to completely isolate the vibration generated by the speaker and vibration generated by the floor.
There are several ways to achieve this. Let’s think about how best we can do it.
1. Hang the speaker on the ceiling: Technically a good idea, but not realistic in the majority of listening environments as the mechanism is too big. Also, there may be side effects due to the size with so many factors such as material of wire, length, divided vibration, etc. that need to be carefully considered.
2. Float the speakers with a magnet; The magnetic force is inversely proportional to the square of the distance. As the distance from the magnet increases, the repulsive force of the magnetic force decreases, and as the distance approaches, the repulsive force increases. It is a bit confusing and very important to note that the strength of the force that weakens the repulsive force when the distance of 1 mm increases and the strength of the force that increases the repulsive force when the distance of 1mm approaches are not the same. This is because the distances from the magnet are different so it will never be symmetric or linear. The device floating on the magnet doesn’t have centre position so there’s no guarantee that it would return to the same position. Therefore, moving up and down (push-pull) behaves differently and not symmetrical, which would generate micro distortion. Also, the speaker itself is driven by magnet force and so it is difficult to place another magnet in the same field without negatively affecting each other.
3. Put rubber or a spring underneath the speaker; Elastic materials such as rubber absorb vibration by deforming. However, it requires a certain amount of force to start deforming, and no absorption happens until then, which means that micro vibration cannot be absorbed. Also, elastic materials have 3-dimensional distortion by their nature. For springs, resonance generated by itself needs to be considered.
As such, it is very challenging to practically isolate the vibrations between speakers and the floor.
WELLFLOAT has succeeded by installing a very small mechanism inside of the board and has effectively achieved “1. Hang the speaker on the ceiling” with minimum side effect.
 
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This is a hallowed book for me. I inherited this book from an old engineer in 1983. I have designed a lot of springs using this book. I converted the formulas in this book into computer programs back in the day so that I could quickly optimize a design. I used my program to design the springs that are under my amps which I ordered from McMastercarr. This book explains how to design just about every type of spring used.


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If it isn't too much trouble, please post a photo of a page in this book where a suspended wire pendulum is discussed.
 
Reading through your posts, you guys are WAAAY smarter than I am or I ever will be.

I LOVE to explore tweaks but I think I am unique in that I don't care about the how it works, only that it does make an audible improvement.

Simply as an observation I will say that I have tried MANY vibration controls brands and devices the Well-Float are currently my favorite if I were to use only use one device vs. stacking two different devices together (i.e. Well-float + RevOpods).
 
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Question for Cellcbern: If you press down the component that is resting on the Wellfloat platform does it move? And then when you release your finger does the component move back to its original position?
 
If it isn't too much trouble, please post a photo of a page in this book where a suspended wire pendulum is discussed.
A pendulum is not a spring. A pendulum provides periodic motion which is what we are trying to avoid by isolating our audio components. Mechanical vibration isolation is achieved with springs. Springs isolate, rubber dampens. Rubber can isolate at a specific, small range of frequencies based on material, shape and load. Spring/mass systems isolate from just beyond their resonance point to as high as you want to go. In audio, our goal is to design an isolation platform with as low a resonance point as possible. Dampers on the audio gear helps to absorb those airborne vibrations as well as any internally generated vibrations. A well designed audio component has dampers/footers tuned to its own internally generated vibrations.

The Wellfloat text tells you right in the first line that they developed a U shaped spring for their platform. They say it approximates hanging speakers from the ceiling.
 
From the website:

Note in #3 that using "rubber or a spring" is listed as one of the roads not taken. At the end their approach is summarized as identical in function to suspending the speakers from the ceiling.

2. Fundamental mechanism 1 – Isolation between device and floor​


Putting the speakers directly on the floor or stands with no concern. Is that correct?
The energy of vibration is lost loss little by little as it travels through feet, stands, insulators or spikes, and the energy finally becomes zero when arrives at the ground. With each step different vibration and sub-harmonics will be added based on type of materials, weight, etc. and this will generate distortion at every point. Due to these accumulated distortions, the total output will be heavily distorted and coloured. You may feel some “strongness” or a “pushy sound” from the speakers standing directly on the floor, but this is based on the distortion not on the speakers’ true performance. Some people may like it for a short period of listening, but not for longer term enjoyment.
In order to resolve the issue, it is required to completely isolate the vibration generated by the speaker and vibration generated by the floor.
There are several ways to achieve this. Let’s think about how best we can do it.
1. Hang the speaker on the ceiling: Technically a good idea, but not realistic in the majority of listening environments as the mechanism is too big. Also, there may be side effects due to the size with so many factors such as material of wire, length, divided vibration, etc. that need to be carefully considered.
2. Float the speakers with a magnet; The magnetic force is inversely proportional to the square of the distance. As the distance from the magnet increases, the repulsive force of the magnetic force decreases, and as the distance approaches, the repulsive force increases. It is a bit confusing and very important to note that the strength of the force that weakens the repulsive force when the distance of 1 mm increases and the strength of the force that increases the repulsive force when the distance of 1mm approaches are not the same. This is because the distances from the magnet are different so it will never be symmetric or linear. The device floating on the magnet doesn’t have centre position so there’s no guarantee that it would return to the same position. Therefore, moving up and down (push-pull) behaves differently and not symmetrical, which would generate micro distortion. Also, the speaker itself is driven by magnet force and so it is difficult to place another magnet in the same field without negatively affecting each other.
3. Put rubber or a spring underneath the speaker; Elastic materials such as rubber absorb vibration by deforming. However, it requires a certain amount of force to start deforming, and no absorption happens until then, which means that micro vibration cannot be absorbed. Also, elastic materials have 3-dimensional distortion by their nature. For springs, resonance generated by itself needs to be considered.
As such, it is very challenging to practically isolate the vibrations between speakers and the floor.
WELLFLOAT has succeeded by installing a very small mechanism inside of the board and has effectively achieved “1. Hang the speaker on the ceiling” with minimum side effect.
As is clear from the photo of the inner workings of the Wellfloat Delta footer (1st photo), each of the three rigid L-shaped cantilevers is effectively a small piece of "ceiling" from which the wire is suspended. With their top of the line product - The Babel (right side of 2nd photo) each little piece of "ceiling" has three supports (no longer a cantilever), and there are four layers of them. See any springs in these photos? The Wellfloat Babel by the way isolates down to the molecular level, something no spring based isolation system can approach.
 

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A pendulum is not a spring. A pendulum provides periodic motion which is what we are trying to avoid by isolating our audio components. Mechanical vibration isolation is achieved with springs. Springs isolate, rubber dampens. Rubber can isolate at a specific, small range of frequencies based on material, shape and load. Spring/mass systems isolate from just beyond their resonance point to as high as you want to go. In audio, our goal is to design an isolation platform with as low a resonance point as possible. Dampers on the audio gear helps to absorb those airborne vibrations as well as any internally generated vibrations. A well designed audio component has dampers/footers tuned to its own internally generated vibrations.

The Wellfloat text tells you right in the first line that they developed a U shaped spring for their platform. They say it approximates hanging speakers from the ceiling.
Thanks for the isolation 101. Note that it is precisely the pendulum motion which is the basis for Wellfloat's (and SoundKaos', and Boenicke's) superior designs.

You have been reading and interpreting the Wellfloat website selectively. The U-shaped spring's function is described only under FAQ's in response to this question:

3. Can WELLFLOAT be used upside down?
WELLFLOAT has a U-shaped spring inside specifically designed to convert the direction of vibration to the horizontal. This U-shaped spring is this direction taking into account gravity.
If the mechanism is upside down, WELLFLOAT will not function properly. It is very important to make sure that WELLFLOAT is NOT upside down and keep the suggested directions. As long as the directions of up and down are correct, you can place WELLFLOAT in any directions in a horizontal way without any compromise of the performance. Please refer to the following diagram for more details on what’s happening inside our mechanism.

Nowhere in the three paragraph technical explanation (or in any review of Wellfloat devices) is it inferred that compression of the spring is the mechanism of isolation. Paragraph 3 in the technical explanation is entitled Fundamental Mechanisn 2 - Pendulum Movement and Distortion. The first line is the question: What is the reason why the pendulum movement can remove distortion?

In the Wellfloat platforms (cutaway side view attached) the cantilever/"spring" from which the wire is suspended holds the top board above/away from the base, and prevents pendulum movement until a component is placed on top. Once the weight of the component compresses the spring/cantilever (which can only compress/move in the vertical plane) it can no longer move, and effectively becomes a rigid cantilever as in the Wellfloat footers. All movement/isolation is then from the (horizontal) pendulum movement of the wire only. This is easy to appreciate by handling the device. When you take a Wellfoat board out of the box the top plate can be depressed a little and bounces back in the vertical plane. It also floats freely in the horizontal plane. Once it has the weight of a component on it no movement in the vertical plane is possible, and it takes effort to get it to move in the horizontal plane.

From the 6Moons.com review: "....Once weight mass loads the top board, the stainless steel anchor depresses to free the piano wire which can now move laterally like a pendulum".

Again, with the suspended pendulum design compression of a spring is not the mechanism of decoupling/isolation, horizontal pendulum movement from suspended wires is. Wellfloat's suspended wire design works completely differently from spring based devices (e.g., Townshend and DIY versions).
 

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Has anyone compared the Wellfloat Delta to the new Soundkaos Vibra 68? Both seem to apply the same pendulum approach to isolation, but the Vibra 68 is much more compact in terms of footprint (60mm diameter vs 150mm equilateral triangle) albeit a little taller (45mm vs 36mm). The Vibra 68s are also about half the price of the Deltas. I'm curious as to whether the closer placement of the pendulums in the Vibra 68 compromises (or maybe even enhances?) its performance.

I had earlier positive experience with the Townshend Speaker Podiums, which made a huge difference years ago in the performance of my earlier Magico A3 speakers. I have been told, however, by someone very knowledgeable about and familiar with both the Townshend Speaker Podiums and the Tidal Audio Contriva speakers (my current speakers) that the isolation from the Townshend SPs do not make much, if any, difference in the performance of the Contrivas.
 
Has anyone compared the Wellfloat Delta to the new Soundkaos Vibra 68? Both seem to apply the same pendulum approach to isolation, but the Vibra 68 is much more compact in terms of footprint (60mm diameter vs 150mm equilateral triangle) albeit a little taller (45mm vs 36mm). The Vibra 68s are also about half the price of the Deltas. I'm curious as to whether the closer placement of the pendulums in the Vibra 68 compromises (or maybe even enhances?) its performance.

I had earlier positive experience with the Townshend Speaker Podiums, which made a huge difference years ago in the performance of my earlier Magico A3 speakers. I have been told, however, by someone very knowledgeable about and familiar with both the Townshend Speaker Podiums and the Tidal Audio Contriva speakers (my current speakers) that the isolation from the Townshend SPs do not make much, if any, difference in the performance of the

Has anyone compared the Wellfloat Delta to the new Soundkaos Vibra 68? Both seem to apply the same pendulum approach to isolation, but the Vibra 68 is much more compact in terms of footprint (60mm diameter vs 150mm equilateral triangle) albeit a little taller (45mm vs 36mm). The Vibra 68s are also about half the price of the Deltas. I'm curious as to whether the closer placement of the pendulums in the Vibra 68 compromises (or maybe even enhances?) its performance.

I had earlier positive experience with the Townshend Speaker Podiums, which made a huge difference years ago in the performance of my earlier Magico A3 speakers. I have been told, however, by someone very knowledgeable about and familiar with both the Townshend Speaker Podiums and the Tidal Audio Contriva speakers (my current speakers) that the isolation from the Townshend SPs do not make much, if any, difference in the performance of the Contrivas.
Haven't heard the Vibras, but Srajen Ebaen's (6Moons.com) review of them, which came after his review of the Delta Extreme footers, did not mention a difference in performance, only in price.
 
Has anyone compared the Wellfloat Delta to the new Soundkaos Vibra 68?

I have. Extensively.

Feel free to PM and I'm happy to share my thoughts.
 
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Has anyone compared the Wellfloat Delta to the new Soundkaos Vibra 68?

Hello! I responded to you PM with some details. Hope that helps.

For the others I wanted to share this video which includes the Vibra 68's.

They are a great product for sure and among the top tier which means in the end it comes down to use case and personal preference. But on my system I preferred the Well-float.

 
I just ordered a Well Float platform directly from Japan. Model WFB-4449-150. It’s a 17”x19” * platform with a 330lb capacity. I’ll see, or hear actually for myself how it sounds. I will also see how well it isolates compared to my significantly cheaper solution. I plan to try the Well Float platform under my preamp first. Then I will place it under my DAC, my 86lb DAC. My back hurts just thinking about it.

10 day delivery time. Looking forward to trying it out.

* In French units it is a 440mmx490mm platform with a 150kg capacity. My DAC weighs 39kg.
 
I just ordered a Well Float platform directly from Japan. Model WFB-4449-150. It’s a 17”x19” * platform with a 330lb capacity. I’ll see, or hear actually for myself how it sounds. I will also see how well it isolates compared to my significantly cheaper solution. I plan to try the Well Float platform under my preamp first. Then I will place it under my DAC, my 86lb DAC. My back hurts just thinking about it.

10 day delivery time. Looking forward to trying it out.

* In French units it is a 440mmx490mm platform with a 150kg capacity. My DAC weighs 39kg.
FYI:



 
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I just ordered a Well Float platform directly from Japan. Model WFB-4449-150. It’s a 17”x19” * platform with a 330lb capacity. I’ll see, or hear actually for myself how it sounds. I will also see how well it isolates compared to my significantly cheaper solution. I plan to try the Well Float platform under my preamp first. Then I will place it under my DAC, my 86lb DAC. My back hurts just thinking about it.

10 day delivery time. Looking forward to trying it out.

* In French units it is a 440mmx490mm platform with a 150kg capacity. My DAC weighs 39kg.
I'll be curious what you think.

I've compared over 8 different vibration isolation products. I've found while there are some that do one thing better than others and may be better in a specific narrow application, they all seem to have a negative associated with that.

I've PERSONALLY found the well-float platforms and Delta's to be the best *overall* product that while adding many positives, to my ear encompasses none of the negatives the others do and carries that across all uses I've tried up till now.

I also think it will depend on what kind of shelf you rest the platform on.
 
Thanks for those links. I read some other reviews on their Babel product too. No question they know what they are doing. Regarding that Delta discussion: Note the link showing the FFT plots and IMD calculations with and without the Delta footers. Frankly that difference in IMD is negligible from an audible standpoint. And I think that was output at the phono cartridge with the Delta footers on the speakers. A better comparison might have been a microphone set up at the listening position to see how the final outcome sounds.

I believe isolation with springs is neutral, ie it does not affect tone or timber of the component. Rather it clarifies by removing destructive reflections that can add or subtract to/from the music which can be interpreted as coloration sometimes. Dampers can subtract but also can and will color the sound of a component. That's not necessarily bad- we tend to want to tune our system to our own specific sound preferences. That's why I like to get out and hear other hifi systems to compare and assure myself that I have not strayed from the high fidelity path. I also like to get feedback from others about how my system sounds. It is not always good feedback but I appreciate that (unless it's my brother) and end up making my system sound better.

At this point my expectation is that I will not hear much difference between my spring isolation setup and the Well Float board, but I am usually wrong. When I put the Gaia footers on my Thiel speakers I found they did not completely isolate my speakers from the floor like my spring platforms but the Gaia footers made my speakers sound better. So I keep an open mind. The goal is always better sound, more music.
 

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