Videos of Acoustically-Coupled Audio Recordings

[Tim Link]

you completely lost me right there.

why would i care about the best possible analog and digital sources, if i'm going to be limited in performance by the dsp engine? unacceptable to me in my 2 channel room.

my system building culture would be turned upside down with your approach.

i could agree that at modest performance levels that your approach might be a preferred net benefit. heck yeah, dsp everything. but not at the highest levels of media and sources.....and rooms. and the best preamps are not 3 channel, so you are restricted there too, in your preamp<->amp interface. big steps backwards.

i can see a three channel tapes and three channel systems being superior. but that's a pretty small music universe to invest in.

You would care about the quality of the source material because the limit of the dsp engine is insignificant - unless it's not for you. I cannot hear the dsp channel mixer doing anything bad. It nulls to absolute zero. The inverse function brings the original tracks back bit perfect so it's really hard to explain what possible limit it could be imposing on your system other than you don't like the intended effect no matter how perfectly it is executed. There are ways around the dsp or any mixing for that matter, but if you prefer 2 speaker playback on 2 channel recordings then there's no reason for you to do anything extra. I've read plenty of reports of people not liking crosstalk elimination or not hearing anything much different at all from it so I know it's not for everybody. Some people even intentionally introduce crosstalk on headphones to make them sound more like speakers. I don't get it, but it's their ears, not mine.

My only reason for bringing any of this up was that MF is using those in-ear microphones and those should be able to record the tonal difference between a dedicated center channel and a phantom center image. If someone could demonstrate the two sounding nearly identical that would raise my eyebrows and make me re-think my efforts with upmixing.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

You would care about the quality of the source material because the limit of the dsp engine is insignificant - unless it's not for you. I cannot hear the dsp channel mixer doing anything bad. It nulls to absolute zero. The inverse function brings the original tracks back bit perfect so it's really hard to explain what possible limit it could be imposing on your system other than you don't like the intended effect no matter how perfectly it is executed. There are ways around the dsp or any mixing for that matter, but if you prefer 2 speaker playback on 2 channel recordings then there's no reason for you to do anything extra. I've read plenty of reports of people not liking crosstalk elimination or not hearing anything much different at all from it so I know it's not for everybody. Some people even intentionally introduce crosstalk on headphones to make them sound more like speakers. I don't get it, but it's their ears, not mine.

My only reason for bringing any of this up was that MF is using those in-ear microphones and those should be able to record the tonal difference between a dedicated center channel and a phantom center image. If someone could demonstrate the two sounding nearly identical that would raise my eyebrows and make me re-think my efforts with upmixing.

excellence is the enemy of the good.

so it all depends on your 2 channel reference.

i'm not claiming that dsp and a center channel speaker can't improve certain parameters, reducing inter-aural crosstalk and other acoustic fixes. but how great is the particular 2-channel performance you are seeking to improve with a center channel? how pure is the analog or digital performance? how ideal is the room acoustics and analog signal path including the whole signal path?

when all those variables are optimized in a mature system, then the sonic degradation from dsp and the necessary compromises in the signal path for the good dsp and center channel, loses the fight to the excellent pure 2 channel approach.

i have a Trinnov Altitude 16 processor in my HT room. it's at the top of the dsp food chain. i love it. but its not in the league of my 2 channel purity. and it's a big jump. so your claim than dsp engine's degradation is insignificant means you need to seek out higher level analog systems to raise your reference. i disagree with your viewpoint.

it's a fair question as to where the tipping point might be where a center channel might be better. i could agree with that.

it all depends on your 2 channel reference.

 

[Tim Link]

it all depends on your 2 channel reference.

Do you think a superbly implenented physical barrier setup might be able to retain all the good qualities you are hearing from your reference system while also reducing the crosstalk?

 

[morricab]

Do you think a superbly implenented physical barrier setup might be able to retain all the good qualities you are hearing from your reference system while also reducing the crosstalk?

Did you ever try Legacy Audio speakers? I remember they made a big deal about controlled directivity of their speakers and the resulting reduction in interaural crosstalk …don’t remember how much but it was significant.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Do you think a superbly implenented physical barrier setup might be able to retain all the good qualities you are hearing from your reference system while also reducing the crosstalk?

having never tried it, i cannot say.

i suspect based on how much i've worked on fine tuning my room is that i would run out of mental energy before i succeeded. not saying it's not possible.

but.......it's answering a question i'm not asking. i'm fully satisfied with my center image. OTOH i did go to the trouble 19 years ago to build a cost no object purpose built room and then spent 11 years figuring it out and fine tuning it before i got it right for my preferences. 20 years ago, before i moved to this home with a barn (where i built my room) i had a great sounding much smaller room where i used ASC tube traps to good result. i still have a few ASC tube traps in my attic.

 

[Tim Link]

Did you ever try Legacy Audio speakers? I remember they made a big deal about controlled directivity of their speakers and the resulting reduction in interaural crosstalk …don’t remember how much but it was significant.

No, I never tried those. I just did some reading on them and I didn't see any mention of crosstalk reduction. They do mention the controlled radiation pattern cutting down on early reflections and improving the stereo imaging. I see some side by side midrange drivers in some of their designs that remind me a little of Polk SDA. Not sure if that has anything to do with crosstalk reduction. I had some of those Polk speakers years ago but never experienced the crosstalk reduction as doing anything significant or compelling for me. I also had a Carver sonic holography enabled preamp and couldn't hear anything interesting from engaging that feature either. I'm not sure if I didn't have the speakers positioned well enough or what. I never perceived sound coming from beyond the width of the speaker triangle back then. I hear that every day now even from my very basic, inexpensive little 2 speaker bookshelf setups.

 

[Tim Link]

having never tried it, i cannot say.

i suspect based on how much i've worked on fine tuning my room is that i would run out of mental energy before i succeeded. not saying it's not possible.

but.......it's answering a question i'm not asking. i'm fully satisfied with my center image. OTOH i did go to the trouble 19 years ago to build a cost no object purpose built room and then spent 11 years figuring it out and fine tuning it before i got it right for my preferences. 20 years ago, before i moved to this home with a barn (where i built my room) i had a great sounding much smaller room where i used ASC tube traps to good result. i still have a few ASC tube traps in my attic.

Indeed, you've got a great setup now, and it certainly wouldn't be practical to come in every day and listen with a barrier in your face even if you did get it all worked out to sonic excellence. I've given up on barrier setups that sounded stunning to me because they just weren't physically practical. Speaking of TubeTraps, I recently set up a quick barrier arrangement using a bunch of StudioTraps in our sound room. They work great as a crosstalk barrier. The setup wowed me like it always does, but then I put the speakers and traps back into a practical arrangement.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Tonight I recorded carefully to my iPhone Anette Askvik's "Liberty." I think it is a beautiful song, and I have heard it numerous times at audio shows. At audio shows I think it invariably sounds dry and digital, and I remember thinking to myself how wonderful this would have been had it been recorded in analog.

Even using the iPad as streamer (which I generally thing sounds sad) through the Baltic 4 I think this song sounded better tonight than at any time I have heard it previously at a show.

So then I recorded it on the iPhone to post on Vimeo for y'all. Well off the iPhone it sounds much drier, harsher, sharper -- much more digital. I feel it does not represent faithfully the sound of what I heard in the listening room tonight. This is why, except for limited purposes in specific situations and for A/B comparisons which I have described previously, I think the whole video thing makes little sense.

Once I figure out how to subscribe to Vimeo so I can upload more than two videos per month, I will upload tonight's video and you'll hear what I am talking about.

 

[bonzo75]

If you don’t think it represents the system don’t upload it. That’s what we’re have said for 4 years now. We upload the ones we think represents. Fremer uploaded the one he said represents.

 

[morricab]

Tonight I recorded carefully to my iPhone Anette Askvik's "Liberty." I think it is a beautiful song, and I have heard it numerous times at audio shows. At audio shows I think it invariably sounds dry and digital, and I remember thinking to myself how wonderful this would have been had it been recorded in analog.

Even using the iPad as streamer (which I generally thing sounds sad) through the Baltic 4 I think this song sounded better tonight than at any time I have heard it previously at a show.

So then I recorded it on the iPhone to post on Vimeo for y'all. Well off the iPhone it sounds much drier, harsher, sharper -- much more digital. I feel it does not represent faithfully the sound of what I heard in the listening room tonight. This is why, except for limited purposes in specific situations and for A/B comparisons which I have described previously, I think the whole video thing makes little sense.

Once I figure out how to subscribe to Vimeo so I can upload more than two videos per month, I will upload tonight's video and you'll hear what I am talking about.

And if you put it on YouTube?

 

[PeterA]

Tonight I recorded carefully to my iPhone Anette Askvik's "Liberty." I think it is a beautiful song, and I have heard it numerous times at audio shows. At audio shows I think it invariably sounds dry and digital, and I remember thinking to myself how wonderful this would have been had it been recorded in analog.

Even using the iPad as streamer (which I generally thing sounds sad) through the Baltic 4 I think this song sounded better tonight than at any time I have heard it previously at a show.

So then I recorded it on the iPhone to post on Vimeo for y'all. Well off the iPhone it sounds much drier, harsher, sharper -- much more digital. I feel it does not represent faithfully the sound of what I heard in the listening room tonight. This is why, except for limited purposes in specific situations and for A/B comparisons which I have described previously, I think the whole video thing makes little sense.

Once I figure out how to subscribe to Vimeo so I can upload more than two videos per month, I will upload tonight's video and you'll hear what I am talking about.

Ron, is that because this latest recording is your first of your digital streaming source while your others were of tape and vinyl? I wonder why that would be, or do you have a different explanation?

 

[Ron Resnick]

If you don’t think it represents the system don’t upload it. That’s what we’re have said for 4 years now. We upload the ones we think represents. Fremer uploaded the one he said represents.

I don't think any of these videos represents accurately any system -- unless, at least, possibly, maybe if the video is played back on a big stereo.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Fremer uploaded the one he said represents.

I think the song starting at 33 minutes in Michael's video sounds dry and sharp and thin and digital. I don't know what Michael's talking about regarding the video, but I'm sure that that iPhone recording does not represent the sound of his system.

 

[bonzo75]

I don't think any of these videos represents accurately any system -- unless, at least, possibly, maybe if the video is played back on a big stereo.

let’s not repeat ourselves 4 years on and just keep in a loop

 

[PeterA]

I think the song starting at 33 minutes in Michael's video sounds dry and sharp and thin and digital. I don't know what Michael's talking about regarding the video, but I'm sure that that iPhone recording does not represent the sound of his system.

Ron, how do you reconcile MF‘s own comment about his video and the many from others who say something similar about their own system videos? You just don’t take them at their word or believe them?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Ron, how do you reconcile MF‘s own comment about his video and the many from others who say something similar about their own system videos? You just don’t take them at their word or believe them?

Peter,

as i said to Ked, MF might think his video resembles what he hears, but the words he might use to describe it be completely different from Ked's.

logically MF's personal experience with his system fills in the blanks of what he hears in the video.....more or less....but to some degree.

if Ked and MF listened to a bunch of video's together over time their perspectives might align to a degree. i personally recognize that video watching and analysis is a learned thing.....that i have not yet mastered. and my heart has not been in it. not yet seen the fun of it.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, how do you reconcile MF‘s own comment about his video and the many from others who say something similar about their own system videos? You just don’t take them at their word or believe them?

Not believe them? It's a hobby, Peter. I don't assume people are lying.

Is your question implying 1) you don't like the sound of Michael Fremer's video, 2) you don't like the sound of the videos of many others who say something similar about their own system videos, 3) you like the sound of your videos, 4) you are trying to reconcile how people could like the sound of videos that don't sound like the videos of your system?

 

[bonzo75]

Not believe them? It's a hobby, Peter. I don't assume people are lying.

Is your question implying 1) you don't like the sound of Michael Fremer's video, 2) you don't like the sound of the videos of many others who say something similar about their own system videos, 3) you like the sound of your videos, 4) you are trying to reconcile how people could like the sound of videos that don't sound like the videos of your system?

i think he is asking you why don’t you take at face value the people including MF who say the sound of the video is representative of that system

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

as i said to Ked, MF might think his video resembles what he hears, but the words he might use to describe it be completely different from Ked's.

logically MF's personal experience with his system fills in the blanks of what he hears in the video.....more or less....but to some degree.

if Ked and MF listened to a bunch of video's together over time their perspectives might align to a degree. i personally recognize that video watching and analysis is a learned thing.....that i have not yet mastered. and my heart has not been in it. not yet seen the fun of it.

Mike, we are talking about two different things. One is what Michael and others hear from their videos and their own judgment about whether or not it is representative. They are making a comparison between two things. How different people choose to describe the sound they hear, from the video or the system live, is a different subject entirely.

 

[PeterA]

i think he is asking you why don’t you take at face value the people including MF who say the sound of the video is representative of that system

Yes exactly. The producer of the video is making a judgment and comparison of how well his video represents the sound of a system. We cannot make that same judgment because we are only listening to the video and not to the system which it is purported to represent.

Ron is basically saying that he discredits Michael‘s comment about his own video being representative of the sound of his system. I’m asking Ron on what basis he can make such a judgment?