Visit to Bending Wave USA--Gobel and CH Precision---state of the art

Elliot G.

Industry Expert
Jul 22, 2010
840
99
28
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
#61
Dear Morris
The driver is not the same as the Manger in fact it is quite different in every way and is patented by Oliver. I don't know why think anyone really cares about your opinion particularly about something you did not hear. The system Mike heard is in my showroom in Florida. Your opinion about something that you truly don't seem to know anything about and you did not experience in my opinion has value how?. I have tried to be a gentleman and I would never make comments about your gear which I have never seen nor ever heard and if you are involved I certainly don't plan on taking interest on since any company that would have you representing them certainly needs to reassess their choice.
Your attempt to hijack a thread and to attempt to make your self an expert is truly self serving and classless.
I hope the other readers see you as you are a blowhard with an agenda
Merry Christmas!
 
Oct 15, 2010
132
5
18
Kidneystone-on-Trent
#62
I hope the other readers see you as you are a blowhard with an agenda.
Maybe that's what you hope, but as one of the "other readers," seems to me that you're the blowhard with an agenda.

What about the following statement did you not understand?...

"I have not been impressed at all with the bending wave Goebels but the Divin was quite good."

It's plain as day that he has, in fact, heard Goebel's products. He liked one, didn't like the other. He has an opinion based on audition(s) and is perfectly within his rights to express it.

Everything else is baggage you bring to the party.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
2,870
245
63
Switzerland
#64
Dear Morris
The driver is not the same as the Manger in fact it is quite different in every way and is patented by Oliver. I don't know why think anyone really cares about your opinion particularly about something you did not hear. The system Mike heard is in my showroom in Florida. Your opinion about something that you truly don't seem to know anything about and you did not experience in my opinion has value how?. I have tried to be a gentleman and I would never make comments about your gear which I have never seen nor ever heard and if you are involved I certainly don't plan on taking interest on since any company that would have you representing them certainly needs to reassess their choice.
Your attempt to hijack a thread and to attempt to make your self an expert is truly self serving and classless.
I hope the other readers see you as you are a blowhard with an agenda
Merry Christmas!
I thought I made it clear I have heard both types of Goebel speakers with CH electronics ...so while I have not heard YOUR setup I have heard a setup with the combination of gear in question . I would be surprised if you had heard my gear in the US. and since you say you haven’t ...well mighty big of you not to comment

I don’t think you should use the word gentleman and blowhard in the same post...I may be a lot of things but blowhard is not one of them and a gentleman you appear not to be...rather condescending would fit though I think .

I tried to hijack a thread, really? By commenting about speakers that are on topic? Funny idea you have about what constitutes a hijack.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
2,870
245
63
Switzerland
#65

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
#66
Hi guys

Merry Christmas to you all. As I stated yesterday this is IMO an interesting thread and since my admonitions yesterday there continue to be personal and ad hominem attacks. These are not necessary and frankly I'm surprised by many of the comments here and from whence they come.

Can we please get this thread back on track. I'm sure this arguing serves no function except to escalate Everyone should know better.

Let's all enjoy the day
 

RCottin

New Member
Oct 21, 2017
18
6
3
#67
Elliot, has anyone tried high power, push-pull tube amplifiers (e.g., VAC 450s, VTL Siegfrieds, ARC 750s) on these speakers?[/QUOTE

I just sold my ARC Ref 750 SE’s, before the Aeon arrived, so I could not try them together. But from my experience with them and other speakers, I have no doubt the 750 SE would drive the Aeons without problem. In fact I think that it may be a good match.
 

wisnon

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2011
2,638
82
48
#68
FYI...extracted from my orig post last year:
Similar to Manger bending wave tech. One uses soft and the other hard material. Daniela Manger gave me a brief overview last year and the Goebel gentleman did a follow up explanation on WBF last Nov.

They are more full range than even my big Heil driver ( req response only 650hz up to 23K, while the Manger does 80hz to 31K) but the Heil driver is faster, with its air velocity transformer function. Needless to say, I prefer the Heil to Manger (dipole vs monopole). Dont know the Goebel, so cant comment.
 

Elliot G.

Industry Expert
Jul 22, 2010
840
99
28
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
#70
https://www.bendingwaveusa.com/technology/
The Bending Wave Oliver patented is described here and it is not a dipole, or a push pull driver of any kind. It is in the details that separates it from others and like many things in life it is not the same only shares a similar name.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
2,870
245
63
Switzerland
#71

Elliot G.

Industry Expert
Jul 22, 2010
840
99
28
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
#72
That's not what it says . It says that it damps the signal at 4000 in the rear. However the signal travels along the BW driver in phase ac cross its all in phase. It does not have an in phase and out of phase signal as in a dipole
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
2,870
245
63
Switzerland
#73
That's not what it says . It says that it damps the signal at 4000 in the rear. However the signal travels along the BW driver in phase ac cross its all in phase. It does not have an in phase and out of phase signal as in a dipole
It says backside dispersion reaches up to 4kHz... sounds an awful lot like there is a back wave that is damped above 4khz. If that is true then indeed it is dipolar up to 4khz. A bending wave must radiate both forwards and backwards, that’s physics. What you do with the backwave determines if the output is dipolar or not. It looks like there is indeed rear wave output with this driver. Is there a box behind this driver? It doesn’t look like it so then it must radiate rearward out of phase from the front...OR there is another driver on the backside wired out of phase to give a Bipolar response...it seems at least there is some damping to tailor the back wave response.
 

Elliot G.

Industry Expert
Jul 22, 2010
840
99
28
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
#74
It is not a push pull driver , there is no back wave. The entire signal is in phase. The driver does not move in that way.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
2,870
245
63
Switzerland
#75
It is not a push pull driver , there is no back wave. The entire signal is in phase. The driver does not move in that way.
Obviously it’s not push/pull I never suggested it was. However, when a flat sheet of some material bends it will radiate sound forwards and backwards and these will be out of phase. The propagating wave goes both positive and negative directions (ie. In and out). Unless you damp the back wave it will have dipolar radiation.
 
Likes: audio.bill

Elliot G.

Industry Expert
Jul 22, 2010
840
99
28
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
#76
That is not how it was explained to me so if you need further details you will have to contact Oliver who designed it.
Happy New Year
 

Oliver Göbel

Industry Expert
Oct 9, 2017
15
5
3
Munich
www.goebel-highend.de
#77
Hello all together,

Firstly I want to thank you all for your interest in our products, the technologies behind them and for your time listening and discussing about our products here in this forum.

Just a quick note to one of your questions:
Of course below the coincidence frequency, one single bending wave has a direct phase correlation between the front and the back of the membrane.

But with our world wide unique bending stiff bending wave technology, we do it differently:

Our bending stiff bending wave loudspeakers producing sound mainly above the so called coincidence frequency. That is the frequency where the phase velocity on the membrane and in air is the same. Also above this coincidence frequency the phase velocity on the membrane is rising as higher the frequency will get.

That means, waves are actuated (not only on one point) and are running over the surface of the membrane faster than in air. Also these waves are then guided and damped on several points and through several devices.
In sum, this creates a sound dispersion which has no real phase relation between front and back radiation (No problems with arising comb filters from loudspeaker to the back wall), as well as results in a very equal, wide band, phase coherent and wide dispersion to the front.


For all that are interested. Our distributor for USA - Bending Wave USA - will have their grand opening of their new facility and showroom on Jan 26 to 27. I will also join this event and will be very happy to personally talk, discuss and demonstrate you all our products.
For further infos, please get in contact with Bending Wave USA.

In the meantime I want to wish all of you a happy New Year with health, happiness and a lot of good music.


All the best,
Oliver
 

Elliot G.

Industry Expert
Jul 22, 2010
840
99
28
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
#78
Thank you Oliver and Happy New Year to you and your family. See you in a few weeks!
I know what it does but can never explain it the way you do LOL.
I believe you will be thrilled at the sound we have here.
Peace
 
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mach1

New Member
Jan 11, 2019
2
4
3
61
#79
Hi all,

like Mike who started this thread, I have loved CH for quite some time. Unfortunately my budget did not extend to the mono version, just as well since I do not have a separate music room.

Elliot, I would love listen to your system but doubt I will be stateside any time soon. Could I request a copy of your play list ? PM sent.
 

marty

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
1,259
115
63
Far Hills, NJ
#80
We couldn’t quite recall the exact date, but I first met Elliot Goldman at one of his earliest stores in South Florida and although he doesn’t remember the specifics, I sure did. It was one of those audiophile demos that you never forget, even if it was some 30 years ago. Elliot introduced himself, turned the lights down low, and cranked up Dead Can Dance on an all Spectral rig driving the big Genesis speakers. I never forgot it. Nor did I forget a most hospitable host who never tried to sell me a thing (as if I could afford it anyway.)

The Bending Wave Goebel speakers have attracted lots of attention, and although the “Grand Opening” for his new brick and mortar store Front Row Theater” is a week away, once again, a visit to the area prompted me to call Elliot to see if I might be able to visit to hear them. He graciously welcomed my visit.

There’s always so many things to assess when hearing a SOA system for the first time as you try to attribute what to what. Is it the room? The electronics? The cables? The gear? Etc. But one thing you can take to the bank, is that Elliot knows his sh** and knows how to set-up a good system. And with that, let me just say that I had a wonderful visit. Not only was it good because I got to hear a fabulous music system. But what is equally great in the world of an amateur traveling audiophile (although I am an amateur to Ked and wish I had his frequent flyer miles), is that it’s even better when you hear and learn about great music at the same time. Surprisingly, Elliot doesn’t consider himself an audiophile as much as he considers himself a music lover. His playlists are eclectic and decidedly “non-audiophile”, unless you want them to be. But when he is left to do the driving, just sit back and soak it up. It’s a genuine treat. I never would have guessed for example, that I’d be listening to some country singer from Houston whose lyrics are worth paying attention to hearing. As regular WBF readers know, Elliot has offered a limited version of his playlist to those who have asked him directly. Yet he says there’s still a few hundred songs or so that he hasn’t dropped into his yet!

So let’s get to it. How did the Bending wave speakers sound? Well, to begin, you can bet they didn’t sound too shabby since they were being driven by about 500K worth of CH Precision gear plus Goebel cabling. Seriously, if I had to limit my adjectives more discretely, the word I would use is “purity”. One might presume that would be the case since The Bending Wave driver is nearly a full range driver. In reality, it covers from 160Hz to the bat range of hearing, so one shouldn’t be surprised that a lack of crossovers for most of the range translates to a perceived “purity” of sound that does indeed set a very high audio bar for listening. There is also an array of 3 conventional drivers each above and below the Bending Wave driver for augmentation below 160Hz, but for the most part, it is the uniqueness of the Bending Wave that accounts for the majority of the range of sound one hears.

We spent a few hours listening to an all digital-sourced series of recordings and a recurring comment when listening to some oldies but goodies (60’s through 80’s analog recordings burned to digital) was just how good they are which for the most part, I had not previously appreciated. This is clearly direct testimony to the merits of the system Elliot put together for which the Bending Wave driver is a big part of its success.

Of interest, Elliot also had a pair of the Goebel Divin speakers in the room but they were not hooked up. Priced a bit higher to the Bending Wave, they do not use the Bending wave technology. I’ll let Elliot provide the rationale for the strategic decision that is the basis for Goebel’s unusual marketing decision if he wishes. But they are said to provide their own unique benefits for listening including more formidable deep bass and higher efficiency. I hope to be able to hear them on a future visit. No doubt the Bending Wave will be attracting a lot of well-deserved attention in the weeks and months ahead. You’ll also be able to hear them at AXPONA if you’re going.

Now I have the unenviable task of returning home and scurrying to find all the great tracks Elliot played for me today while trying to accept the limitations of a more conventional driver system that use well-designed crossovers (Wilson Alexandria S-2), but there-in lies the rub, There is little argument that for many things in audio such as capacitors, a similar mantra can also be said regarding crossovers that “the best sounding crossover is no crossover at all”. The Bending Wave driver is a formidable achievement that is certainly worth hearing. If indeed you hear them, I'm sure that like me, you will be thinking long and hard about what you heard for a long time after you leave Elliot's shop.
 

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