Visit to Boston to Hear the Sublime Sound of PeterA

[Ron Resnick]

. . .
Do you have any advice on getting the lateral imaging to move beyond the outside of the speakers and walls at all? . . .

I understand hearing a soundstage which extends to the left of the left speaker and extends to the right of the right speaker -- which is wide from wall to wall, not just from speaker to speaker. I also understand hearing depth, the sound from which appears to come from a location deeper (further away) than the dimension between your ears and the front wall of the room.

But I think I have never heard a set-up which makes the walls disappear sonically. I am not even sure what that would suggest? A sound as though you were listening outdoors to a band playing outside in a field? Maybe I misunderstand. Or do you just mean you are trying to achieve in the lateral plane the same illusion we sometimes hear with respect to depth in the back-to-front plane?

I generally believe that sound absorbers help with the illusion that whatever they are placed on disappears sonically. (This is why I and others place sound absorbing panels on the rear wall if the listening position is against, or close to, the rear wall. This is why it is great to have a long listening room like MikeL and SpiritofMusic Marc.)

I would suggest trying absorbing the first reflections and also placing sound absorbers on the wall to the left of the left speaker and on the wall to the right of the right speaker.

18' X 12' is a nice length to width dimension ratio, I believe.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . I have reached a compromise that sounds good and does not detract too much from the sense that this is our formal living room. At times, I am sure that my wife considers it a dedicated "stereo" room, or "Peter's" room.

I asked Peter some of these questions too. I am sure Peter's understanding wife sees the family living room largely as Peter's room.

If it were not the family living room I am sure Peter would remove the piano, the tall storage chest, the framed photos, etc. In an effort to retain some visual semblance of a living room I think Peter has done a great job minimizing sonic compromises. I supported the idea of moving the amplifiers downstairs.

I wanted Anne to like me so I did not suggest to her that they knock down the wall between the living room/listening room and the dining room (the wall behind Peter's turntable set-up) to create a 16' wide and 30' long listening room.

Now that the wheels are spinning . . . is it too late for me to convert my whole living into a dedicated listening room? There is a giant fireplace on the West wall and walls of sliding glass on the South wall. I could cover and wallpaper the entire fireplace wall and all the sliding glass walls with 4' X 8' X 2" sheets of ASC absorber panels. The giant glass chandelier could be knocked off the ceiling with a long-handled mallet. The resulting space would be about 24' wide and about 35' long and 14' high. Hmmmm . . .

 

[cjfrbw]

Very nice report and entertaining kibitzing clamor as usual. Somewhere in Peter's history I missed the transition to the larger Magico speakers. I rather enjoy the 'mover's mat' solution over the fireplace, kinna DIY cool over the otherwise meticulous looking environs. It also probably creates less visual distraction while listening.

SME turntables are pretty much sold out from the factory, so they haven't really cared much about review momentum. I remember they missed a lot of reviews in US because they would only release one table and it would have to wait from one reviewer to the next, and did no accommodations, so many just skipped them or even dissed them out of hand.

Probably the most misleading invidious remark "SME 30 is the best CD player I have ever heard". I would say they have a well controlled mass element to the sound, not too much and not too little. Some like more mass effect than SME offers. The clamping system also favors an upper midrange emphasis. I use a heavy brass weight now with a thin leather mat, and the sound is warmer without bloat. I liked the standard sound, too, but I never liked the clamping system that forced the record down onto the mat at the edges with screw down torque against a heavy washer place on the spindle, which fractured several records spindle holes. I also don't like the standard clamp's tendency toward metal fatigue over time on the clamp itself and the spindle.

I have preferred the "First Watt" sound to the larger Pass Labs ouvres, but the XA25 in particular is a real peach.

 

[Al M.]

Why do you think this is? Do you think that Ron's description is inaccurate, or that the Pass/Magico systems you have heard have not sounded like what Ron describes because of set up or system context, or that Pass/Magico is incapable of sounding like what Ron described? I am intrigued.

It could be something as simple as speaker set-up. When you first got the Q3, we were also not satisfied with tonality and dynamics until you moved the speakers a few inches closer together (and the necessity of this even depended on just a cartridge change!). I am convinced that many systems are not properly set-up -- see also Jim Smith's observations about audiophile systems in general. If people hear Magico 10 times not good sounding, chances are that all these 10 times the system had either speaker-amp mismatch or set-up problems -- or both. No, I do not intend to exaggerate with this suggestion.

 

[PeterA]

Wow - thanks Peter for the comprehensive reply. I admire and commend you for the extreme attention to detail you are going to with your system - very inspiring stuff. Looking forward to your next breakthrough. I am very interested to learn your tips for room treatments. I heard an ASC treated room a couple of years back and thought the bass response was very good indeed - with Alexias.
Do you have any advice on getting the lateral imaging to move beyond the outside of the speakers and walls at all? I am about to move my kit to a smaller room of 18’4 x 12’ x 8’ and have a Carte Blanche really. The imaging was already deep in there with just one GIK trap that I moved in as a very quick experiment before I move the system in properly. I want the lateral image to widen mainly.

Best regards.

Thanks Bill. I am not really qualified to answer your question about how to expand the width of one's perceived soundstage. I just work within the confines of my non-dedicated room and experiment until the sound improves. I do find that speaker and listener positioning has a lot to do with the sense that the system can disappear. This is what Jim Smith refers to as "playing the room". Once this happens, magic occurs. The sound suddenly leaves the plane or area around the speakers and is unleashed to fill the room with sound. The speakers vanish, the musicians are in front of you, and the sound originates at the instruments but then bursts forth to fill the room. This is not loudness, but a sense that the sound from the instruments leaves the stage and surrounds the listener, just like in a good hall. This relationship between the room and the system is vital. And each room and system (speaker type) is different. I am only now beginning to understand what works in my particular room with my system.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I understand hearing a soundstage which extends to the left of the left speaker and extends to the right of the right speaker -- which is wide from wall to wall, not just from speaker to speaker. I also understand hearing depth, the sound from which appears to come from a location deeper (further away) than the dimension between your ears and the front wall of the room.

But I think I have never heard a set-up which makes the walls disappear sonically. I am not even sure what that would suggest? A sound as though you were listening outdoors to a band playing outside in a field? Maybe I misunderstand. Or do you just mean you are trying to achieve in the lateral plane the same illusion we sometimes hear with respect to depth in the back-to-front plane?

I generally believe that sound absorbers help with the illusion that whatever they are placed on disappears sonically. (This is why I and others place sound absorbing panels on the rear wall if the listening position is against, or close to, the rear wall. This is why it is great to have a long listening room like MikeL and SpiritofMusic Marc.)

I would suggest trying absorbing the first reflections and also placing sound absorbers on the wall to the left of the left speaker and on the wall to the right of the right speaker.

18' X 12' is a nice length to width dimension ratio, I believe.

Hey Ron,

Maybe it is my fanciful audiophile dream although I have heard that it is possible - I am referring to a system that projects an image and scales such that the room doesn’t exist. For example when listening to say a quartet recorded in a small room, it sounds that way and scales like it. When I play orchestral, the stage seemingly expands exponentially and appropriately to the recorded acoustic - this would mean layering beyond my walls both in width and depth.

Incidentally I did manage to get an image depth beyond my rear wall in my old room for recordings that had the space - mainly with loads of absorption on the front wall and first reflections. I never managed to do this on lateral walls.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . I am convinced that many systems are not properly set-up -- see also Jim Smith's observations about audiophile systems in general. . . .

+1

I certainly was guilty of this for the last 18 years with the same exact system in three very different rooms. This time, after the initial "hatch," I am looking forward to tweaking speaker position and room treatment for as many years as it takes to optimize everything.

I may even sprinkle in a few Mooks to make Kedar happy.

 

[Al M.]

Hi Tang,

It is interesting cos your vids actually really capture that speed and micro dynamics that I was waffling about.

How do you hear that from compressed YouTube digital?

 

[PeterA]

Probably the most misleading invidious remark "SME 30 is the best CD player I have ever heard". I would say they have a well controlled mass element to the sound, not too much and not too little. Some like more mass effect than SME offers. The clamping system also favors an upper midrange emphasis. I use a heavy brass weight now with a thin leather mat, and the sound is warmer without bloat. I liked the standard sound, too, but I never liked the clamping system that forced the record down onto the mat at the edges with screw down torque against a heavy washer place on the spindle, which fractured several records spindle holes. I also don't like the standard clamp's tendency toward metal fatigue over time on the clamp itself and the spindle.

cjfrbw, the move to the Q3 happened last April and there are details in my system thread.

I have never heard anything like what you describe about the clamping system on SME tables. I don't doubt that it could happen, but I suspect that it would be from seriously over-tightening the screw down clamp. I was not aware of an upper midrange emphasis with this system. I might look into that. I have not experimented with alternatives on either my old Model 10A or the current 30/12A. That is very interesting. Thanks for sharing that observation.

I wonder about the origin of that SME30/CD comment. Is it something about the character of the SME sound? Perhaps the bass quality or lack of "sonic signature"? Very curious.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hey Ron,

Maybe it is my fanciful audiophile dream although I have heard that it is possible - I am referring to a system that projects an image and scales such that the room doesn’t exist. For example when listening to say a quartet recorded in a small room, it sounds that way and scales like it. When I play orchestral, the stage seemingly expands exponentially and appropriately to the recorded acoustic - this would mean layering beyond my walls both in width and depth.

Incidentally I did manage to get an image depth beyond my rear wall in my old room for recordings that had the space - mainly with loads of absorption on the front wall and first reflections. I never managed to do this on lateral walls.

I understand. That all makes sense to me.

Wait, "an image depth beyond my rear wall"? Does this mean you heard sound seemingly coming from behind your head?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

How do you hear that from compressed YouTube digital?

Oh here we go lol. Maybe let’s just forget that each other exist, Al. Please hit the button to obscure my posts and all will be fine.

I think it is quite easy to hear that transient speed and inflections even in this vid.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I understand. That all makes sense to me.

Wait, "an image depth beyond my rear wall"? Does this mean you heard sound seemingly coming from behind your head?

Apologies Ron - front wall as you are facing it (I call it rear wall as it is behind my speakers). That said I have heard people get some imaging literally behind their head. Check out the YouTube vid of Peter on AVshowrooms talking about his experience with the Audio Note fully fledged level 5 system in this regard. Couple of other folks have mentioned this to me.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .
SME turntables are pretty much sold out from the factory, so they haven't really cared much about review momentum. I remember they missed a lot of reviews in US because they would only release one table and it would have to wait from one reviewer to the next, and did no accommodations, so many just skipped them or even dissed them out of hand.

Probably the most misleading invidious remark "SME 30 is the best CD player I have ever heard". I would say they have a well controlled mass element to the sound, not too much and not too little. . . .

There was no direct comparison to another turntable, of course, but I am still comfortable with my subjective feeling from visiting Peter that the SME 30/12 is under-rated and under-appreciated.

 

[PeterA]

Hey Ron,

Maybe it is my fanciful audiophile dream although I have heard that it is possible - I am referring to a system that projects an image and scales such that the room doesn’t exist. For example when listening to say a quartet recorded in a small room, it sounds that way and scales like it. When I play orchestral, the stage seemingly expands exponentially and appropriately to the recorded acoustic - this would mean layering beyond my walls both in width and depth.

Incidentally I did manage to get an image depth beyond my rear wall in my old room for recordings that had the space - mainly with loads of absorption on the front wall and first reflections. I never managed to do this on lateral walls.

Bill, I understand just what you mean. In my case, this illusion is helped by the fact that I prefer to listen at night and in the dark. My system does a pretty good job of disappearing and of convincingly changing to portray different recording venues. It is fairly good with small scale (solo cello, string quartet, girl with guitar) to medium scale (small jazz band, big band, choral music, concertos) but it fails to really capture the grandeur of large scale orchestra. Depth does keep getting deeper but I really don't escape the confines of the side walls for larger scale music.

The physical limitations of my speakers and the room just don't cut it, but it is certainly enjoyable to hear these performances.

 

[Al M.]

Oh here we go lol. Maybe let’s just forget that each other exist, Al. Please hit the button to obscure my posts and all will be fine.

I think it is quite easy to hear that transient speed and inflections even in this vid.

Hmm, a bit of over-reaction perhaps, Bill? No, I will not hit the button to obscure your posts.

Let me quote Bazelio from the Tango video thread (emphasis added):

Wow, great compare. I think I prefer the Atlas SL to the Opus1 - to the extent that compressed Youtube audio can differentiate between them. Based on reading in the forum, I thought for sure I'd prefer Opus1. Now, I'd be very curious to hear acoustic guitar and voices as well! EDIT: I suspect Opus1 in my solid state system might be the preferred cart, but so far in yours, I think it's a bit reserved compared the the Atlas SL. I was trying to listen for microdynamics, but found it difficult. Tang (or Gian), which cart do you feel has better microdynamics in your system?

I think those are reasonable observations.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Bill, I understand just what you mean. In my case, this illusion is helped by the fact that I prefer to listen at night and in the dark. My system does a pretty good job of disappearing and of convincingly changing to portray different recording venues. It is fairly good with small scale (solo cello, string quartet, girl with guitar) to medium scale (small jazz band, big band, choral music, concertos) but it fails to really capture the grandeur of large scale orchestra. Depth does keep getting deeper but I really don't escape the confines of the side walls for larger scale music.

The physical limitations of my speakers and the room just don't cut it, but it is certainly enjoyable to hear these performances.

Hi Peter,

Yes i admire your honesty on this scaling thing. I haven’t really ever heard a fully loaded orchestral grandeur other than a WE system in Munich and General’s System in his baronial hall for a listening room lol. I personally have never really got close either - in fact I have more or less conceeded that I won’t in my room - I’ll have a go though. Luckily I am more switched on musically by smaller scale stuff on the whole so all is fine lol.

 

[Al M.]

There was no direct comparison to another turntable, of course, but I am still comfortable with my subjective feeling from visiting Peter that the SME 30/12 is under-rated and under-appreciated.

Agreed, Ron!

 

[PeterA]

There was no direct comparison to another turntable, of course, but I am still comfortable with my subjective feeling from visiting Peter that the SME 30/12 is under-rated and under-appreciated.

It is also on back order and in fairly high demand. I have serial #68 after two years of production, six years ago or so, which is astonishing for such an expensive table. I heard production numbers a few years ago from an SME dealer for all of their models, and I was astonished at how many turntables and arms SME sells. I wonder how the numbers compare to TechDAS, Kronos, Basis, Clearaudio, VPI and others? Most brands discussed on WBF seem to be of very limited quantities. SME is just not very popular here in the US where prices are really high and the press and forums are more focused on other brands.

 

[cjfrbw]

cjfrbw, the move to the Q3 happened last April and there are details in my system thread.

I have never heard anything like what you describe about the clamping system on SME tables. I don't doubt that it could happen, but I suspect that it would be from seriously over-tightening the screw down clamp. I was not aware of an upper midrange emphasis with this system. I might look into that. I have not experimented with alternatives on either my old Model 10A or the current 30/12A. That is very interesting. Thanks for sharing that observation.

I wonder about the origin of that SME30/CD comment. Is it something about the character of the SME sound? Perhaps the bass quality or lack of "sonic signature"? Very curious.

Alastair Aikman liked to finger 'tap' the records to establish preferred deadness/ resonance. The cross section of the sme corked mat is slightly dished toward the center. The clamping system elevates the record center at the washer, and the outside edge of the record is slightly deformed in a domed manner to establish primary contact at the spindle area and the edge. To me, this generated a bit of shifting from lower midrange to upper midrange energy. I wouldn't call it extreme, but noticeable. I wouldn't even disagree with the system, since that emphasis could also result in perceived increase in detail retrieval. I just don't like the 'hard clamping' system. I worked with implants in biologic systems of very hard materials that would fatigue with even light, repetitive biologic pressures over time, and I stripped one SME clamp, so I just don't feel comfortable with that kind of clamping system. Maybe I am just too heavy handed with it.

Whether this accounts for the commentary about dryness, I wouldn't know. The CD comment is from a while ago, so I don't remember who said it, but since digital was not that great in those days, I am sure the intent was not to flatter.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hmm, a bit of over-reaction perhaps, Bill? No, I will not hit the button to obscure your posts.

Let me quote Bazelio from the Tango video thread (emphasis added):



I think those are reasonable observations.

In all seriousness, I do find some of these YouTube vids quite illuminating and actually useful. Call me mad but I have been recording my own system as another metric of determining the impact of changes. I would love a thread on wbf with YouTube clips of people’s systems.