Visit to Todd (sbnx) Avantgarde Trio G3 in Parker, Texas

[Chop]

Hello Chop. Since Ron deferred to me here goes.

I have never tried setting up a pair of G2 AG horns so I don't know where the best place to point the tweeter would be for that series of speakers. The G3 has the drivers time aligned and the tweeter is really something special. The best place to point the tweeter is right at the ear canal. There is some fine adjustment to the exact location but in general is it pointed at the ear. I have the Trios set up this way and I set up the Duo GT's this way at the SWAF. Nobody complains of any brightness, harshness, hardness, shouty-ness etc. (I personally would not tolerate that type of thing anyway.) If anything, I would say the sound at the SWAF was a little too soft. I was using the iTron amp at the SWAF and used one of the switches in the back to boost the tweeter output by 1.5dB to give it more liveliness.

One track I repeatedly played at the show was off Hilary Hahn's Eclipse album. Track 1-- Dvorak Violin Concerto in A minor: Allegro Ma Non Troppo. This is very aggressively played violin and she plays very high. The high notes have beautiful harmonic development and the vibrato is fabulous. I could play this quite loud without any issue. I had one Japanese lady sit in the main listening chair for the entire performance. Done wrong and this is going to be screaming at the listener and one would hurredly reach for the remote to turn it down.

Some may think that with the tweeter pointed right at the ear that is going to equal "head in a vice" type sound. This is not the case. All kinds of people came in to listen -- tall and short and sat in the same chair. It was all good. You could move your head around without the sound dramatically changing. Ron can comment on this. When he was listening to the Trios I specifically asked him, "Do you feel like your head is in a vice?". His respnonse was "Absolutely not!". But I will allow him to elaborate on his thoughts.

Hi Tom

Thanks for the reply. Despite the age of my horns and my tweeters not being time aligned, that is helpful.

 

[Hear Here]

Not nitpicking. When you setup tweeter pointing to the ear. There is only one place in the room. Any other seats will not have tweeters pointing to the ears. Nobody complained in the show maybe not because of this?

Many years ago I took my Avantgarde speakers to a UK hi-fi show to help an amplifier brand to demonstrate his tube amps.

For such a show where listeners will be sitting in a large number of not-ideal seats we (Holger Fromme from the nearby AG room visited to help set them up) used much less toe-in compared with an ideal home set-up. This seemed to work very well as everyone heard very impressive music.

At home I have the horns pointing almost directly towards my face. It's the "almost" that you'll find the most critical to get spot on. With my Duo XDs, both horns point identically to the same spot as this design has all its drivers vertically aligned.

With the Trio's non-aligned horns, setting up adds a further consideration - do you place them so the tweeter horn is on the outside or the inside! Opinions seem to differ as the now-vanished User Gallery section of the AG site showed. Room dimensions seem to be the influential factor in that decision.

 

[Chop]

Many years ago I took my Avantgarde speakers to a UK hi-fi show to help an amplifier brand to demonstrate his tube amps.

For such a show where listeners will be sitting in a large number of not-ideal seats we (Holger Fromme from the nearby AG room visited to help set them up) used much less toe-in compared with an ideal home set-up. This seemed to work very well as everyone (apart from the lucky guy who grabbed the prime seat), heard very impressive music.

At home I have the horns pointing almost directly towards my face. It's the "almost" that you'll find the most critical to get spot on. With my Duo XDs, both horns point identically to the same spot as this design has all its drivers vertically aligned.

With the Trio's non-aligned horns, setting up adds a further consideration - do you place them so the tweeter horn is on the outside or the inside! Opinions seem to differ as the now-vanished User Gallery section of the AG site showed. Room dimensions seem to be the influential factor in that decision.

Thanks Hear Hear.
My starting point has always been with the horns pointing straight at the listening seat then angling them out a little. I mean, a little. The new music room is narrower than before which means I'm sitting further away relative to the distance the speakers are apart, so I have experimented with having them toed out more. I'm not sure it works quite as well so I thought I'd sanity check my thinking here.
- I don't want to move them further down the room unless I can avoid it. This is all work in progress...

BTW, I really don't like the tweeters on the outside, Neither in this room or the previous two rooms.

 

[caesar]

Fantastic, Ron. Great write up and personally not surprised at all for 2 reasons:

1. I have heard the AG Trio G3s and spacehonrs myself and have a high level understanding of them now. Very high level
2. I cannot think of a more indepth and detailed step by step process of set up than Todd's chronicles here on WBF. Marty is probably the only other one that goes thru such minute detail in the scientific measurements, note-taking and milli-adjustments.

And if there is one thing I could tell from the AG Trios is that one of their attractions IS that they are meticulous, exacting and have instant reflexes at almost every level within the spectrum (deep deep bass probably an exception I have not covered and it seems Todd has also found his own way). But the distributor/dealer did warn me...it will cost you in the set up dedication you are prepared to give it. They are very tough to set up.

In truth, they were breathtaking in many respects: effortless scale and yet incredibly nuance and detail at whisper levels. The key was that the treble was hard...I said so...and the dealer could only shrug in acknowledgement and say 'they are really, really tough to set up and I think he would still have liked more time.

In a room 45' wide and 35' deep with 14' ceilings, it was like the jazz ensemble was playing at a level that was believable and yet effortless. And by my experience at that sound pressure level, most speakers would give you a sense they were playing loudly. Even big XLFs, Focal Grande EMs, etc. But not this. Not at all.

That one hearing has left quite an impression on me.

Hi LL,
Very nice post. Can you please elaborate on this: " And by my experience at that sound pressure level, most speakers would give you a sense they were playing loudly"?

Thanks

 

[caesar]

Fantastic, Ron. Great write up and personally not surprised at all for 2 reasons:

1. I have heard the AG Trio G3s and spacehonrs myself and have a high level understanding of them now. Very high level
2. I cannot think of a more indepth and detailed step by step process of set up than Todd's chronicles here on WBF. Marty is probably the only other one that goes thru such minute detail in the scientific measurements, note-taking and milli-adjustments.

And if there is one thing I could tell from the AG Trios is that one of their attractions IS that they are meticulous, exacting and have instant reflexes at almost every level within the spectrum (deep deep bass probably an exception I have not covered and it seems Todd has also found his own way). But the distributor/dealer did warn me...it will cost you in the set up dedication you are prepared to give it. They are very tough to set up.

In truth, they were breathtaking in many respects: effortless scale and yet incredibly nuance and detail at whisper levels. The key was that the treble was hard...I said so...and the dealer could only shrug in acknowledgement and say 'they are really, really tough to set up and I think he would still have liked more time.

In a room 45' wide and 35' deep with 14' ceilings, it was like the jazz ensemble was playing at a level that was believable and yet effortless. And by my experience at that sound pressure level, most speakers would give you a sense they were playing loudly. Even big XLFs, Focal Grande EMs, etc. But not this. Not at all.

That one hearing has left quite an impression on me.

Once again, surprised Avantgarde has not crossed their "T"s and dotted their "I"s to make sure this treble thing is not a distraction to many folks who find Avantgardes "bright", "aggressive", etc.

Thank goodness Sbnx has figured this out... I think Avantgarde should credit his purchase price for performing this service

 

[Hear Here]

Once again, surprised Avantgarde has not crossed their "T"s and dotted their "I"s to make sure this treble thing is not a distraction to many folks who find Avantgardes "bright", "aggressive", etc.

If anyone finds Avantgarde speakers "bright" or "aggressive" (which they are not), they could "dull" this brightness by feeding it with a "dull" amplifier.

However, this would rather defeat the characteristic of Avantgarde speakers - to deliver as "exciting" a listen as if at the live performance. The speaker / amplifier match is very important, either to achieve this, or (let's not even consider it) to aim for a flatter, less exciting a listen.

 

[bonzo75]

If anyone finds Avantgarde speakers "bright" or "aggressive" (which they are not), they could "dull" this brightness by feeding it with a "dull" amplifier.

Can you please name some “dull” amplifiers?

 

[Bergm@nn]

perhaps my next speakers will be the Duo GTs with iTron.

I have a pair of Duo XDs and agree the only speaker upgrade I would consider in this room is Duo GT.

Mine are toed straight at my face and then I'm gradually moving them outwards until I lose the imagery and then will tweak them back in.

 

[Hear Here]

Can you please name some “dull” amplifiers?

Easy - Benchmark AHB2, or Sugden Masterclass FPA-4, or Quad Platinum.

Why - are you looking for one?

I bought or borrowed these amps amongst many more when I decided to move from SETs for my AGs. These 3 stood out as "dull", to the extent the temptation was to turn down the volume rather than pep it up. Kiss of death as far as I'm concerned.

 

[caesar]

If anyone finds Avantgarde speakers "bright" or "aggressive" (which they are not), they could "dull" this brightness by feeding it with a "dull" amplifier.

However, this would rather defeat the characteristic of Avantgarde speakers - to deliver as "exciting" a listen as if at the live performance. The speaker / amplifier match is very important, either to achieve this, or (let's not even consider it) to aim for a flatter, less exciting a listen.

Hahaha. My 2 cents: guys just get acclimated to a sound over the years.

I recently attended a blues show, and the guy pulled out his Fender Telecaster for a couple of tunes. The thing had a LOT of BITE on top - most audiophiles would cry that it's too bright

 

[Al M.]

I recently attended a blues show, and the guy pulled out his Fender Telecaster for a couple of tunes. The thing had a LOT of BITE on top - most audiophiles would cry that it's too bright

Aggressive electric guitar must have lots of BITE. A system which makes all guitar sound "polite" fails miserably. Too bad that E-guitar often does sound too polite from systems.

At the same time, a system must also be able to convey the sweetness of romantic violin.

In other words, the system must not be a one-trick pony that imparts its signature on all music, but on the contrary, it must present the sound signature of the music it reproduces.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

Valleys of Neptune by Jimi Hendrix: Red House has that exact guitar bite
this double LP is fantastic

 

[JackD201]

The Adele 21 album is great recording,what a voice better then most outthere today.
It is advisable to place the speakers halfway across the room. Hardly stimulated room modes there make the stage and the illusion of being there more believable. not everyone has the opportunity to do this. congrats

My pressing is terrible They tried to cram all the songs onto one disc and compressed the heck out of it. I don't know if there are other pressings. One of the few where the files beat an LP of mine.

 

[DasguteOhr]

My pressing is terrible They tried to cram all the songs onto one disc and compressed the heck out of it. I don't know if there are other pressings. One of the few where the files beat an LP of mine.

Do you have XL sterling sound lp (uk pressing XLLP 520)fo me sounds really good.

 

[JackD201]

Do you have XL sterling sound lp (uk pressing XLLP 520)fo me sounds really good.View attachment 127325

Most definitely not what I have. I have a US pressing.

 

[Elliot G.]

Hahaha. My 2 cents: guys just get acclimated to a sound over the years.

I recently attended a blues show, and the guy pulled out his Fender Telecaster for a couple of tunes. The thing had a LOT of BITE on top - most audiophiles would cry that it's too bright

THis is the crux of most arguements about audio.
Do you want tthe SYSTEM to sound like the real thing ?
or
Do you want the system to sound like you want it or like it?
Different goals entirely.
There are many on WBF that like a specific sound and that specific sound only exists in thier head and not in reality.
Many live instruments and vocals have a huge spoectrum of sounds that they produce. SOme are soft, romantic and haunting, others are dynamic and loud and even strident but those are the reality of the instrument/instruments or vocals.
A system that changes the sound is by definition "coloring the sound"

 

[Mike Lavigne]

the whole idea is a system that has the headroom to stay solid and together and allow the music to go where it might. any filter pays a price globally for less truth. but no rules, lots of preferred filters in systems. easier than the commitment to get the room and whole tune level fully right. but real world situations many times need them. or maybe just limit musical choices.

there are recordings that don't appeal to all. but have great merit none the less. which is a different thing than system limitations......but it's part of the picture of how those recordings are perceived.

 

[sbnx]

IMO our stero system is there for entertainment. However someone experiences music and receives the most joy is good with me.

Some have what they want figured out. But it seems to me that many are struggling to get good sound (However it is they want it). It is hard to get a musically engaging system. I would like to add that I don’t think someone has to spend over $100k to get musically engaging. People might think that looking at many of the systems on this site.

 

[AudioHR]

THis is the crux of most arguements about audio.
Do you want tthe SYSTEM to sound like the real thing ?
or
Do you want the system to sound like you want it or like it?
Different goals entirely.
There are many on WBF that like a specific sound and that specific sound only exists in thier head and not in reality.
Many live instruments and vocals have a huge spoectrum of sounds that they produce. SOme are soft, romantic and haunting, others are dynamic and loud and even strident but those are the reality of the instrument/instruments or vocals.
A system that changes the sound is by definition "coloring the sound"

I would basically agree. The only quibble I would have is what is the sound of the real thing?

Our listening experiences and how we personally hear things has a lot to do with how we perceive and judge things.

In addition the media source we are listening to play a huge role in what we end up hearing. A performance in hall A will not sounds the same in hall B. How well did the producers capture the sound? Were they even trying to recreate the performance as played? Was it a live event or a studio production? Was it presented digitally or was it analogue? If it was vinyl was it a good pressing.

So what is the real thing? I get what you are saying but it's a complicated concept. One that I don't have an answer for, I guess that's why forums like this are so interesting!

 

[Elliot G.]

I would basically agree. The only quibble I would have is what is the sound of the real thing?

Our listening experiences and how we personally hear things has a lot to do with how we perceive and judge things.

In addition the media source we are listening to play a huge role in what we end up hearing. A performance in hall A will not sounds the same in hall B. How well did the producers capture the sound? Were they even trying to recreate the performance as played? Was it a live event or a studio production? Was it presented digitally or was it analogue? If it was vinyl was it a good pressing.

So what is the real thing? I get what you are saying but it's a complicated concept. One that I don't have an answer for, I guess that's why forums like this are so interesting!