Visit to Todd (sbnx) Avantgarde Trio G3 in Parker, Texas

[Elliot G.]

I agree but many i speak with have little or none live music experience or what they have is in a hockey rink to a PA system.
If one has to experience then to me one’s observations don’t mean much ( to me)
Of course venues and artists vary but if your gear/system/room/set up is excellent you can enjoy and listen to all these various musical
pieces.
They should sound different yet recognizable as what they are.
i.e. A solo violin shouldn’t sound like it’s the size of stand up
bass or the piano sounds should emanate from the proper places of the instrument.
If the basics are wrong IMO it’s all wrong
I personally believe that most issues are in the system set up

 

[Audiohertz2]

My pressing is terrible They tried to cram all the songs onto one disc and compressed the heck out of it. I don't know if there are other pressings. One of the few where the files beat an LP of mine.

Fully agree Jack , aside i really not in favor of her style or sound , too many really great female vocalist to listen to , considering life expectancy and limited hifi time , not letting her in



Regards

 

[caesar]

THis is the crux of most arguements about audio.
Do you want tthe SYSTEM to sound like the real thing ?
or
Do you want the system to sound like you want it or like it?
Different goals entirely.
There are many on WBF that like a specific sound and that specific sound only exists in thier head and not in reality.
Many live instruments and vocals have a huge spoectrum of sounds that they produce. SOme are soft, romantic and haunting, others are dynamic and loud and even strident but those are the reality of the instrument/instruments or vocals.
A system that changes the sound is by definition "coloring the sound"

Hahaha. The real vicious arguments start when a guy thinks that his system actually is Real ( or whatever “is on the recording”) but another perspective / trade offs are presented, challenging his taste or approach.



And even more vicious arguments come when a guy thinks that everyone should perceive - as god’s truth - to what he perceives as real or best in his imagination. (Naive realism fallacy that is frequently entertained by faux authorities and many disgusting reviewers- “Berkeley reference drek is the best Dac extant!”).


I believe Shakespeare got it right, as this is a subjective hobby : “how bitter a thing it is to look into happiness through another man's eyes".
From none other than his As You Like It!

 

[PeterA]

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[Mike Lavigne]

Hahaha. The real vicious arguments start when a guy thinks that his system actually is Real ( or whatever “is on the recording”) but another perspective / trade offs are presented, challenging his taste or approach.



And even more vicious arguments come when a guy thinks that everyone should perceive - as god’s truth - to what he perceives as real or best in his imagination. (Naive realism fallacy that is frequently entertained by faux authorities and many disgusting reviewers- “Berkeley reference drek is the best Dac extant!”).


I believe Shakespeare got it right, as this is a subjective hobby : “how bitter a thing it is to look into happiness through another man's eyes".
From none other than his As You Like It!

your cynicism misses the mark. and you know it.

serious efforts pursue higher degrees of realism and higher degrees of live presence. a relatively more immersive visceral level of music reproduction. for more listening fun. and fueling our efforts to keep pushing. but.......no one is claiming it's the same as live music. not as good in many ways, but better in others.

the best possible music reproduction is a worthy endeavor. and describing it's pursuit will always involve references to live music.

 

[bonzo75]

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3k Altec

 

[fbhifi]

The term ”Reference” is commonly used by electronics manufacturers to name their highest performance pieces. One would logically think that these components are what the designer’s believe most closely replicate the live musical event that they are presumably trying to recreate electronically. These pieces are their Reference. Audio hobbiests should also have/need a Reference.

Without regular exposure to live music events it’s extremely difficult to remain grounded, focused and within the white lines in this hobby, it’s too easy to veer off the straight and narrow. Perhaps a reasonable analogy would be- If, for many of us, our desire to improve our playback systems is the equivalent of driving a high performance car faster and faster then the importance of remaining within the lines is obvious. Fortunately, if you do veer of course you don’t crash your system.

 

[Elliot G.]

Hahaha. The real vicious arguments start when a guy thinks that his system actually is Real ( or whatever “is on the recording”) but another perspective / trade offs are presented, challenging his taste or approach.



And even more vicious arguments come when a guy thinks that everyone should perceive - as god’s truth - to what he perceives as real or best in his imagination. (Naive realism fallacy that is frequently entertained by faux authorities and many disgusting reviewers- “Berkeley reference drek is the best Dac extant!”).


I believe Shakespeare got it right, as this is a subjective hobby : “how bitter a thing it is to look into happiness through another man's eyes".
From none other than his As You Like It!

I want to believe ( although I don't really have any knowledge) that you seek the sound of music. My point is that those who don't at least start with the goal to try to get to the sound of what is played live and unamplified their goal and results will be wildly different than those who only go to rock events in hockey rinks or football stadiums and even wilder and different to those who never see live music. We can discuss forever which is "best" however for me my goal is as I stated and thats what I seek. If its not yours then we will have very different results.
Do you want a indy car, a Nascar, an off road car, a monster truck?
They are all vehicles but they do things very differently . They are different tools.
If one thinks that a violin is 8 feet tall and so they don't question that when played or that every viloin sounds exactly the same on thier system, or they want everything to sound like it is in Carnegie Hall (I had someone that wanted exactly that) then their results won't be anything like mine and probably not to my liking. Maybe its yours.

Without defining the goals and desires the rest is just BS. What you want should match what you are trying to achieve.
Ther are way to many voices proclaiming everything without the real background details to understand what they are saying.
So broad strokes and meaningless terms have taken over the audio landscape. These words as I have said before without context have little meaning.

 

[bonzo75]

Interesting Ron’s comments on that Adele recording , Must be a Special system indeed to make such a bash listenable ..

Maybe Ron meant “Pressured “ as to run..

Interesting trying to evaluate transparency to recordings between Adele and Eva Cassidy pressurising

 

[caesar]

your cynicism misses the mark. and you know it.

serious efforts pursue higher degrees of realism and higher degrees of live presence. a relatively more immersive visceral level of music reproduction. for more listening fun. and fueling our efforts to keep pushing. but.......no one is claiming it's the same as live music. not as good in many ways, but better in others.

the best possible music reproduction is a worthy endeavor. and describing it's pursuit will always involve references to live music.

Mike,
I am not sure I am following your logic. One man's realism is another man's drek. It's a subjective hobby.

 

[Al M.]

Mike,
I am not sure I am following your logic. One man's realism is another man's drek. It's a subjective hobby.

Even people who have the same unamplified live music reference (i.e. sitting in the same concerts) cannot always agree on believable system reproduction.

 

[caesar]

Even people who have the same unamplified live music reference (i.e. sitting in the same concerts) cannot always agree on believable system reproduction.

Exactly my point

 

[christoph]

Fully agree Jack , aside i really not in favor of her style or sound , too many really great female vocalist to listen to , considering life expectancy and limited hifi time , not letting her in



Regards

Please elaborate on your favorites

 

[caesar]

your cynicism misses the mark. and you know it.

serious efforts pursue higher degrees of realism and higher degrees of live presence. a relatively more immersive visceral level of music reproduction. for more listening fun. and fueling our efforts to keep pushing. but.......no one is claiming it's the same as live music. not as good in many ways, but better in others.

the best possible music reproduction is a worthy endeavor. and describing it's pursuit will always involve references to live music.

Mike,
One more thought - and this is not personal - but just a difference in tastes and preferences .... A while back I heard a system with Dartzeel, Evolution Acoustics, and Playback Designs. It was marketed as an antidote to the popular Wilson - Boulder / Audio Research systems majority of dealers sold, and the Magico / Soulution systems pushed by the Analytical Sound reviewers as "THE BEST"...

Although all 3 systems are attempts at higher degree of realism, they did absolutely nothing for me, putting it mildly. As a point of reality, NYC has over 300,000 millionaires. Many of them love music and go to all types concerts. Yet how many of those people find hifi realistic?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,
I am not sure I am following your logic.

ok, here is my logic.

your claim in post #63 was "when a guy thinks that his system actually is Real"........and......."when a guy thinks that everyone should perceive - as god’s truth - to what he perceives as real"......

which is not what audiophiles do. they aspire to realism and live presence.

why do you overcook where audiophiles actually go to make your points?

One man's realism is another man's drek.

sure.

It's a subjective hobby.

agree. just say that.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,
One more thought - and this is not personal - but just a difference in tastes and preferences .... A while back I heard a system with Dartzeel, Evolution Acoustics, and Playback Designs. It was marketed as an antidote to the popular Wilson - Boulder / Audio Research systems majority of dealers sold, and the Magico / Soulution systems pushed by the Analytical Sound reviewers as "THE BEST"...

Although all 3 systems are attempts at higher degree of realism, they did absolutely nothing for me, putting it mildly. As a point of reality, NYC has over 300,000 millionaires. Many of them love music and go to all types concerts. Yet how many of those people find hifi realistic?

brands in a room do not = results. systems are systems. and no system meets everyone's expectations. OTOH some pieces do maybe have more likelihood of a more musical result. but the assembler makes a big difference. and the evolution of that assembler. i had all the pieces for a number of years prior to putting things together to where i was satisfied. yet i'm sure where i'm at would not satisfy everyone.

 

[sbnx]

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Ok. I was using this track to illustrate to the group how audible phase polarity is. They all heard it and were pretty astounded. This is kind of a funny story.

When the system was finally "done" my wife said "So, can I go listen to some music now?". (She has been patiently waiting for over a year.) She went in and promptly pulled up Metallica. I was sitting beside her on the sofa. She was underwhelmed and I could see it on her face and I could hear it in the system. At first I was like "what's the deal here?" Then it dawned on me to check phase. As soon as I pressed the phase invert button Metallica showed up in the room. The bass released and the band was there. My wife exclaimed "What did you just do?" I had to explain it to her. Now she is a polarity button junkie. Anytime she listens to a song she checks the polairty.

So, for those of you that listen to Metallica (AKA The black album) take note that it is inverted polarity.

 

[sbnx]

There is so much discussion on realism and hifi. IMO HIFI will never be 100% realistic. We can try but ... Can any HIFI system actually reproduce a live orchestra and a jazz band in a club and a live performance by your favorite female vocalist and stadium rock and heavy metal and ... We can get close on some of it. HIFI has come a very, very long way in 100 years since we first had the beginnings of recoreded music. But we still have a loooong way to go to get to 100% realism.

As I stated earlier. To me a stereo system is about entertainment just like going to a concert is entertainment. When I put on Metallica I want to be entertained by the perfromance. I want to feel the energy of the band. When I play Beethoven's 9th I want to hear the greatness of the musicians, I want to laugh at all of Beethoven's jokes and I want to get that rush at the finale.

Some people only really listen to one genre of music. So they can really tailor the sound to that. And some people like that "warm blanket" kind of sound where they can recline in their chair with a nice glass of red wine and bask in the glow. Nothing wrong with that. To each their own. We are fortunate to have a great number of products to choose from where we can pick what suits us.

 

[caesar]

agree. just say that.

I did. I even quoted Shakespeare to help get the point across

 

[caesar]

There is so much discussion on realism and hifi. IMO HIFI will never be 100% realistic. We can try but ... Can any HIFI system actually reproduce a live orchestra and a jazz band in a club and a live performance by your favorite female vocalist and stadium rock and heavy metal and ... We can get close on some of it. HIFI has come a very, very long way in 100 years since we first had the beginnings of recoreded music. But we still have a loooong way to go to get to 100% realism.

As I stated earlier. To me a stereo system is about entertainment just like going to a concert is entertainment. When I put on Metallica I want to be entertained by the perfromance. I want to feel the energy of the band. When I play Beethoven's 9th I want to hear the greatness of the musicians, I want to laugh at all of Beethoven's jokes and I want to get that rush at the finale.

Some people only really listen to one genre of music. So they can really tailor the sound to that. And some people like that "warm blanket" kind of sound where they can recline in their chair with a nice glass of red wine and bask in the glow. Nothing wrong with that. To each their own. We are fortunate to have a great number of products to choose from where we can pick what suits us.

Hi Sbnx,
Hopefully back to topic now.... Nice post...

As someone with a more technical understanding of things, do you happen to know why Avantgarde's rendering of the Attack aspect of the musical envelope is so realistic? I haven't experienced anything like that from any other speaker. Surely, it ain't luck.