Sounds good. What's it take to get a subforum on here? Since 95% of my topics seem to be inappropriate for the majority, perhaps, if I had my own dark corner where sinners can hang out, it would be less disturbance for some.
Vivid Giya G3
- Thread starter dallasjustice
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Sounds good. What's it take to get a subforum on here? Since 95% of my topics seem to be inappropriate for the majority, perhaps, if I had my own dark corner where sinners can hang out, it would be less disturbance for some.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Michael , regarding crossovers ,would you ever consider disconnecting the passive crossover and creating your own and going active?
I only ask because a couple of weeks ago I was 'kicked off' by a manufacturer who had misunderstood what I was doing with room EQ, he thought I had physically removed the crossover from his loudspeakers, the IAP is capable of creating crossovers, I couldn't because of the commercial aspect, but I do enjoy ,for example the Grimm loudspeakers which us DSP to implement equalisation.
Might not a fully active system offer some advantage, interested as always to hear your thoughts.
KR Keith.
I only ask because a couple of weeks ago I was 'kicked off' by a manufacturer who had misunderstood what I was doing with room EQ, he thought I had physically removed the crossover from his loudspeakers, the IAP is capable of creating crossovers, I couldn't because of the commercial aspect, but I do enjoy ,for example the Grimm loudspeakers which us DSP to implement equalisation.
Might not a fully active system offer some advantage, interested as always to hear your thoughts.
KR Keith.
I've thought about active speaker a lot in general. I wouldn't do anything to change the speaker design. If I bypassed the crossovers I would need to know a lot more about the polar response of the speaker to know which crossver works best. I don't have an anechoic chamber so that's not possible. Also, digital crossovers are offer a time domain advantage. However, DSP like Acourate can correct the time domain of a passive speaker very well also. The step response to much better using DSP. I can also correct some passive loudspeaker anomalies from the seated position with DSP.
I remember I once asked Yoav about what he thought about bypassing his analog crossovers. He told me he would void the warranty if I did it. So I didn't do it. Most speaker manufacturers don't like digital crossovers. There's only a handful who have successfully designed speakers with digital crossovers. LD did it with the Nautilus. My guess is that he doesn't want to do it because it would add unnecessary complexity which isn't good for most customers. I think his view is prevalent among manufacturers.
I remember I once asked Yoav about what he thought about bypassing his analog crossovers. He told me he would void the warranty if I did it. So I didn't do it. Most speaker manufacturers don't like digital crossovers. There's only a handful who have successfully designed speakers with digital crossovers. LD did it with the Nautilus. My guess is that he doesn't want to do it because it would add unnecessary complexity which isn't good for most customers. I think his view is prevalent among manufacturers.
Manufacturers ,or at least the ones I know aren't keen on DIY digital , their concern and I do understand this is that a customer rips out the crossover, makes something which sounds far ,far worse, people hear the loudspeaker and tell everyone that is it terrible.
I suspect, it makes more sense to build a DSP loudspeaker from scratch .
Keith.
btw not saying for a moment you would make something that sounded far worse!
I suspect, it makes more sense to build a DSP loudspeaker from scratch .
Keith.
btw not saying for a moment you would make something that sounded far worse!
I'm sure it would sound worse. I have great respect for the speaker designers who have been doing it for a long time. It's certainly the most challenging component to design and many spend entire careers trying to build something great.
Some manufacturers are clearly learning-on-the-job. For example, look at a Magico v3 lateral off axis in stereophile. Alon has improved his design considerably since then.
Some manufacturers are clearly learning-on-the-job. For example, look at a Magico v3 lateral off axis in stereophile. Alon has improved his design considerably since then.
That's part of their worry. The more legitimate one is blowing up the drivers. With DSP, all it takes is a click of a mouth by accident or on purpose to overdrive a driver and blow it up.
I known a case of the designer allowing this and walking the user through it, heck even encouraging it, with great results. But he did this for a friend and a person with substantial expertise. Without such help you would be creating a different loudspeaker than the one that was designed.
Anyway, it certainly not wise to take a brand new loudspeaker still under warranty and perform any kind of surgery like this.
That is not a crossover issue but sizes of drivers Michael. Here is a picture of the speaker:
Look at the top at the disparity of size between the tweeter and midwoofer. What that means is that the midwoofer is told to play higher frequencies until it can hand off to the tweeter. Doing so makes the mid-woofer output more directional as it approaches the crossover region. This in turn causes the energy that come out the sides to dip in that region because the midwoofer is not putting out as much energy there. That's the reason for the dip in the 2.5 Khz region.
As they say this is "physics" of sound. The smaller the wavelength relative to the size of the driver, the more it will "beam" or get directional. The solution is to not let it do that by handing off the sound to a smaller driver.
You could mess with the crossover to hand off to the tweeter sooner but it will likely not want to play such low frequencies leading to distortion and such.
Looking at the Q7 we see that they recognize and remedy this with the addition of a smaller mid-frequency driver prior to hand off to the tweeter. That smaller driver will not beam as much and the problem is solved.
Your Vivid G3 follows the same logic:
Notice how there is a mid-range driver prior to the tweeter.
Now there is more to this such as role of waveguides but at high level, this fundamental of sound reproduction plays a strong role.
That is not a crossover issue but sizes of drivers Michael. Here is a picture of the speaker:
Look at the top at the disparity of size between the tweeter and midwoofer. What that means is that the midwoofer is told to play higher frequencies until it can hand off to the tweeter. Doing so makes the mid-woofer output more directional as it approaches the crossover region. This in turn causes the energy that come out the sides to dip in that region because the midwoofer is not putting out as much energy there. That's the reason for the dip in the 2.5 Khz region.
As they say this is "physics" of sound. The smaller the wavelength relative to the size of the driver, the more it will "beam" or get directional. The solution is to not let it do that by handing off the sound to a smaller driver.
You could mess with the crossover to hand off to the tweeter sooner but it will likely not want to play such low frequencies leading to distortion and such.
Looking at the Q7 we see that they recognize and remedy this with the addition of a smaller mid-frequency driver prior to hand off to the tweeter. That smaller driver will not beam as much and the problem is solved.
(...)
Amir,
Fortunately engineers work on real data and not on photographs, as they know our eyes can trick our minds:
Magico V3 6" (152mm) Nano-Tec midrange cone,
Magico Q7 1 x 6" MG70 Midrange
BTW, the S7 and the M-project also use 6" midrange units.
Doing full range correction, I've blown a couple of softdome tweeters. It happened just like you said. I was in a hurry and clicked the mouse without thinking about levels. Before I knew it, smoke was coming out of my left tweeter. I did it again about two months later. I haven't done that in a while. Hopefully I never make that mistake again. Other friends who use Dirac and other software tell me similar stories. I have a friend with an analog preamp which let the full scale signal through without attenuation. Same thing happened to his tweeter. I bet it happens more often than folks are want to admit.
A logsweep is not normal musical information. I've also learned to take a good sweep the first time. Some tweeters can start to heat up after several sweeps in a row.
Wont happen with the G3's.. you can abuse those drivers big time before they fail.. and best of all , it only costs round $150 to exchange/replace a tweeter .. as they exchange with a factory tested unit (all vivid drivers are specced to 0.5db of another) .. all they do is change the dome and coil out..
biggest danger is poking fingers and a dented dome...
biggest danger is poking fingers and a dented dome...
Thanks Rodney! One of my concerns about getting the vivids was the fragile drivers. I have kids. The grills stay on when I'm not listening. I've also seen them dented at RMAF and the G1 got dinged up when JA reviewed the G1. He claims he doesn't know how it happened.
. Given my spotty track record, I'm glad it's so easy to replace a driver.
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DO NOT TOUCH OR EVEN BREATHE ON THE DRIVERS..!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have removed my grilles due to them fitting really badly and sometimes sliding off , the grilles are an abomination , sharp edges etc
I have a fabrication facility , still cant come up with a better solution
the new b1 decade has sort of salt and pepper cellar covers for the mid and hf driver.. Im not sure whether these can be retrofitted without some x over adjustment
the vivid drivers are born out of pro audio in terms of power handling.. really you can go as loud as your ears will stand and they just "idling"
I have managed to blow the mesh covers off my bass units..all 4 .. they have a 2" excursion.. you can't kill em either
At any rate dallas .. they are exceptional speakers .. I have never heard speakers quite like them.. my pal with the g2's .. a seasoned high end veteran said to me yesterday that we vivid owners become used to such good sound , that we are not aware of it untill we listen to other systems
In my room , you have to actually walk behind the speakers for the holgraphic imaging to collapse .. anywhere in front of the speakers , no matter where you are sitting , the imaging is amazing as is the tonality
the real difference tween the G1 and the g3 is not just the bass , the drivers are MUCH higher on the g1 , thus you tend to listen with your ear on axis with the midbass driver whereas on the G3 , its the tweeter. I have tilted my g1's slightly forward
Im totally amazed at the little "ghosties" that pop up and the absolute pinpoint imaging in a wide and deep soundstage , you become part of the performance and have an experience rather than a listening to muzak session.
the comments I get from non audiophiles are "what are those" "are they speakers" .. a sure conversation piece..
My cousin , a non audiophile put it well after hearing them "music will never be the same for me again"
I stuck my old meridian DSP6000 speakers next to them and compared.. the meridians are no slouches , but they got thrashed.
the only model I have not heard are the G4's .. not sure why they made a g4.... all the others I have heard many many times and have helped a lot of owners set them up and dsp them etc...
I have removed my grilles due to them fitting really badly and sometimes sliding off , the grilles are an abomination , sharp edges etc
I have a fabrication facility , still cant come up with a better solution
the new b1 decade has sort of salt and pepper cellar covers for the mid and hf driver.. Im not sure whether these can be retrofitted without some x over adjustment
the vivid drivers are born out of pro audio in terms of power handling.. really you can go as loud as your ears will stand and they just "idling"
I have managed to blow the mesh covers off my bass units..all 4 .. they have a 2" excursion.. you can't kill em either
At any rate dallas .. they are exceptional speakers .. I have never heard speakers quite like them.. my pal with the g2's .. a seasoned high end veteran said to me yesterday that we vivid owners become used to such good sound , that we are not aware of it untill we listen to other systems
In my room , you have to actually walk behind the speakers for the holgraphic imaging to collapse .. anywhere in front of the speakers , no matter where you are sitting , the imaging is amazing as is the tonality
the real difference tween the G1 and the g3 is not just the bass , the drivers are MUCH higher on the g1 , thus you tend to listen with your ear on axis with the midbass driver whereas on the G3 , its the tweeter. I have tilted my g1's slightly forward
Im totally amazed at the little "ghosties" that pop up and the absolute pinpoint imaging in a wide and deep soundstage , you become part of the performance and have an experience rather than a listening to muzak session.
the comments I get from non audiophiles are "what are those" "are they speakers" .. a sure conversation piece..
My cousin , a non audiophile put it well after hearing them "music will never be the same for me again"
I stuck my old meridian DSP6000 speakers next to them and compared.. the meridians are no slouches , but they got thrashed.
the only model I have not heard are the G4's .. not sure why they made a g4.... all the others I have heard many many times and have helped a lot of owners set them up and dsp them etc...
I don't ever advocate abuse .. What did you blow and how did it happen?
erm , Im not really interested in the measurements much.. how did the G4's sound to you?
erm , Im not really interested in the measurements much.. how did the G4's sound to you?
im sure Dallas wont mind other giya discussion..
Yeh - the loudness thing is addictive..often I pause the music for something or another or walk out the room , and on coming back my reaction is "wow was I listening THAT loud"
im quite friendly with Philip this side .. done some work for them on the limited edition plaques attached to the B1 decades...but havent heard them either..
Yeh - the loudness thing is addictive..often I pause the music for something or another or walk out the room , and on coming back my reaction is "wow was I listening THAT loud"
im quite friendly with Philip this side .. done some work for them on the limited edition plaques attached to the B1 decades...but havent heard them either..
This is a good point. Most folks may not know it when it happens, but many speakers can't play loud enough. Often times the reason is the high frequencies. Many speakers use a tweeter which heats up at high frequencies and high SPL. I didn't discover this but a friend pointed this out to me a while ago. Here is an example of what I'm talking about.
Magico S5 deviation from linearity at 90db and 95db. Notice how the tweeter starts giving up as the SPL goes up. That's because it's heating up and becomes nonlinear at high SPL.
Here is the same measurement on the Vivid Giya G2. Notice how linearity doesn't change as a function of SPL, even at 95db!
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Yes, but unlike the S5, the Giya G2 THD is raising. I rather hear less of a tweeter then more of its THD
Not sure whether this should go here or in the 'what's next M/C ' thread.
http://www.monoandstereo.com/2015/12/vivid-audio-speakers-in-six-channel-dsd.html#more
Keith
http://www.monoandstereo.com/2015/12/vivid-audio-speakers-in-six-channel-dsd.html#more
Keith
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