What’s the world’s best 2 watt amplifier?

Atmasphere

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A good friend uses 2A3 SET mono blocks (3 watts) to drive his Cube Audio Nenuphar speakers (92 db /8 ohm/single driver) with outstanding sound quality and music presentation. YMMV I suppose.
Charles
Its a good bet that unless he's listening near-field or is in a small room, that his impression of 'loud enough' is caused by distortion rather than sound pressure.

You've seen me recommend many times that an SET never be driven past about 20-25% of full power.

People often comment about the 'magic' of SETs and their dynamics, often in the same paragraph saying that there are things you can hear that can't be measured.

Yet this is such an excellent example of what we hear and its really measurable as well!

If you look at the distortion vs power curve of any SET, you'll see something that rises gently at first, but as power is increased the distortion rises faster, (although nothing like you see in a high feedback solid state amp as it near clipping), eventually reaching 10% prior to clipping. When you reach about 20-25% is where the amp gets in trouble with higher ordered harmonics (which are easily shown when displaying the distortion spectra). You know what happens then.

If you measure distortion vs frequency, if the amp has good bandwidth, you'll see a straight line. This is an important spec IMO/IME as it is one of the indicators of a musical amplifier. Most amplifiers even made that use feedback have problems with this and have rising distortion with frequency. This can result in harshness and brightness and is part of why feedback has a bad rap in high end audio, in particular with the SET crowd.

All I'm saying here is that if your friend was paying attention to the measurements, he would know that if he got a speaker that was more efficient, he'd have an even more 'outstanding sound quality and music presentation'. The advantage that 2A3 based amps have over 300b amps is they have wider bandwidth and that translates to less phase shift in the audio band, which means you get a better soundstage (the ear uses phase information to create the soundstage illusion). There are dots to be connected between what is measurable and what we hear and I just did some of that.

Once you've connected a few of those dots, you see an access to easily obtaining audibly better sound quality.
 

charles1dad

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Its a good bet that unless he's listening near-field or is in a small room, that his impression of 'loud enough' is caused by distortion rather than sound pressure.

You've seen me recommend many times that an SET never be driven past about 20-25% of full power.

People often comment about the 'magic' of SETs and their dynamics, often in the same paragraph saying that there are things you can hear that can't be measured.

Yet this is such an excellent example of what we hear and its really measurable as well!

If you look at the distortion vs power curve of any SET, you'll see something that rises gently at first, but as power is increased the distortion rises faster, (although nothing like you see in a high feedback solid state amp as it near clipping), eventually reaching 10% prior to clipping. When you reach about 20-25% is where the amp gets in trouble with higher ordered harmonics (which are easily shown when displaying the distortion spectra). You know what happens then.

If you measure distortion vs frequency, if the amp has good bandwidth, you'll see a straight line. This is an important spec IMO/IME as it is one of the indicators of a musical amplifier. Most amplifiers even made that use feedback have problems with this and have rising distortion with frequency. This can result in harshness and brightness and is part of why feedback has a bad rap in high end audio, in particular with the SET crowd.

All I'm saying here is that if your friend was paying attention to the measurements, he would know that if he got a speaker that was more efficient, he'd have an even more 'outstanding sound quality and music presentation'. The advantage that 2A3 based amps have over 300b amps is they have wider bandwidth and that translates to less phase shift in the audio band, which means you get a better soundstage (the ear uses phase information to create the soundstage illusion). There are dots to be connected between what is measurable and what we hear and I just did some of that.

Once you've connected a few of those dots, you see an access to easily obtaining audibly better sound quality.
Thank you and I understand your point. I’m simply stating the listening impressions of a very experienced listener with good ears.

He has a Pass Labs 30.8XA and T+A Audio 3100 HV amplifiers for comparison. These are very accomplished amplifiers. Yet, with his Cube audio Nenuphars among the 3 amplifiers he unequivocally finds the 2A3 SET the best sounding in his room/system.

I believe him. It certainly doesn’t mean that you or someone else may reach the same conclusion. On the other hand there are listeners who would also prefer the SET in this particular scenario.

It depends on what sonic parameters a listener finds most compelling and important. No doubt, one’s mileage will vary.
Charles
 
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Atmasphere

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Thank you and I understand your point. I’m simply stating the listening impressions of a very experienced listener with good ears.

He has a Pass Labs 30.8XA and T+A Audio 3100 HV amplifiers for comparison. These are very accomplished amplifiers. Yet, with his Cube audio Nenuphars among the 3 amplifiers he unequivocally finds the 2A3 SET the best sounding in his room/system.

I believe him. It certainly doesn’t mean that you or someone else may reach the same conclusion. On the other hand there are listeners who would also prefer the SET in this particular scenario.

It depends on what sonic parameters a listener finds most compelling and important. No doubt, one’s mileage will vary.
Charles
I don't doubt his experience. Something to keep in mind though is that 2A3 isn't going to push the speaker very hard. A Pass Labs will, because its distortion is so much lower it will be natural to turn it up till it 'sounds' as loud. That will be enough power that bass notes will be causing the speaker itself to make a lot more distortion due to breakups and Doppler Effect.

The cleaner your system is, the louder you're likely to play it since you are simply seeking what is comfortable. A system that is lacking in artificial loudness cues (higher ordered harmonics) will sound very relaxed and won't sound loud even when it is.
 

charles1dad

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I don't doubt his experience. Something to keep in mind though is that 2A3 isn't going to push the speaker very hard. A Pass Labs will, because its distortion is so much lower it will be natural to turn it up till it 'sounds' as loud. That will be enough power that bass notes will be causing the speaker itself to make a lot more distortion due to breakups and Doppler Effect.

The cleaner your system is, the louder you're likely to play it since you are simply seeking what is comfortable. A system that is lacking in artificial loudness cues (higher ordered harmonics) will sound very relaxed and won't sound loud even when it is.
Again, I understand your point. But he wasn’t referencing volume levels issues. His comparisons with the 3 amplifiers revealed that the 2A3 SET was/is the best sounding, most satisfying and enjoyable of this group to listen to music.

To further explain, he had preferred the Pass and T+A solid state amplifiers to other tube amplifiers. So it wasn’t strictly a tube beats transistor all of the time circumstance.

He simply found that the 2A3 SET mono blocks presented the better and more engaging sound via the Nenuphars.Purity, realism and naturalness were superior with this pairing.
Charles
 

gestalt

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The advantage that 2A3 based amps have over 300b amps is they have wider bandwidth
Hi Ralph, do you mind elaborating here? Is this due to the output transformer? If so, why?
 

adrianywu

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Thanks, this is similar to what I found. Certainly it seems due to power, as the Gakuoh 300B has a lot more power (30W) than the Souga's (7W). I'm not trying to knock low power amps, they are just quite limited in their applications.
I do want to find a suitable pair of speakers for the Souga - perhaps with an active/powered sub like Jeff Jackson's latest?
What speakers are you using (111dB field coils)...?
I am using the Classic Audio 6475 field coil midrange with a 400Hz rectangular exponential horn, and the Classic Audio 1501 15" bass in a reflex cab. From 7KHz up, I am using an acapella plasma tweeter. The drivers have been acoustically time-aligned at the listening position. I have tried many different combinations of amps driving the respective drivers, and ended up with the Nelson Pass designed amp camp mini (class A balanced mode) to driver the plasma tweeters, a pair of Vacuum State Audio 300B differential push pull amps for the mid-range, and the Parasound Halo A23+ for the bass.
 

Zeotrope

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I am using the Classic Audio 6475 field coil midrange with a 400Hz rectangular exponential horn, and the Classic Audio 1501 15" bass in a reflex cab. From 7KHz up, I am using an acapella plasma tweeter. The drivers have been acoustically time-aligned at the listening position. I have tried many different combinations of amps driving the respective drivers, and ended up with the Nelson Pass designed amp camp mini (class A balanced mode) to driver the plasma tweeters, a pair of Vacuum State Audio 300B differential push pull amps for the mid-range, and the Parasound Halo A23+ for the bass.
Beautiful setup! Would love to see a photo or two…

I considered the Acapella plasma tweeter for my field coil 4-way horns, but went with the Fostex t500aMkII instead.
 
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DasguteOhr

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Atmasphere

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Again, I understand your point. But he wasn’t referencing volume levels issues. His comparisons with the 3 amplifiers revealed that the 2A3 SET was/is the best sounding, most satisfying and enjoyable of this group to listen to music.

To further explain, he had preferred the Pass and T+A solid state amplifiers to other tube amplifiers. So it wasn’t strictly a tube beats transistor all of the time circumstance.

He simply found that the 2A3 SET mono blocks presented the better and more engaging sound via the Nenuphars.Purity, realism and naturalness were superior with this pairing.
Charles
We're talking about the same thing, unless he took extreme care to make sure the levels were the same. Again, its very natural to use more power if that power is clean; you don't even know you're doing it! I'm not talking about a transistor/tube thing here.

I've done a lot of work with 'full range' high efficiency drivers. None of them are full range! They need help in the bass and they need help in the highs. But if you have your head locked in position, the highs can be pretty good. The key is never play them loud. As soon as there's any serious bass notes on the diaphragm, distortion takes off and its not all that musical. So a low power tube amp that can't do that would easily come out on top.
Hi Ralph, do you mind elaborating here? Is this due to the output transformer? If so, why?
The larger you make any audio transformer, the harder it is to get wide bandwidth. Its easiest if there is no DC on either side of the transformer, and only marginally harder if the output transformer is Push-pull, where the opposing DC currents can cancel their magnetic fields in the transformer, thus reducing saturation. Its pretty easy to get 10-100KHz bandwidth with Push-pull with power levels of 60-100 Watts.

Not so with SETs where bandwidth is always tricky. Typically, B+ is fed to the output tube via the output transformer, and this causes saturation problems in the core, especially with bass. To counter this, most SET output transformers have a 'cut core' where there's a little saw cut somewhere in the core so as to break the DC magnetic circuit, thus helping to reduce the saturation problem. But this isn't good for bass response.

One solution is to use what's known as Parafeed, where the output transformer has no B+ on it at all, being fed by a coupling capacitor. That takes care of the DC saturation problem but of course the resistive coupling between the power tube and transformer is inefficient and introduces a timing constant that isn't usually good for bass.

Because the kind of speaker needed to work with such low power levels is likely a horn, and because horns usually don't make deep bass unless enormous, the designer has a certain leeway to move the bandwidth of the transformer up a bit so as to get a bit more high frequency response, especially if bass is going to be a lost cause.

There is a size limitation, since the larger you make the transformer (needed if you're going to make bass), the more you have problems with distributed capacitance in the windings so getting HF bandwidth gets trickier. On top of that with most SET designers, zero feedback is the goal, so to control phase shift (to get better soundstage imaging) you have to get as much HF bandwidth as you can. If you run feedback you don't need as much bandwidth since feedback can correct phase shift.

The problem with feedback is the traditional ways of injecting it into the amplifier causes the feedback signal to be distorted before it can do its job- such as into the cathode of the input tube. This adds higher ordered harmonics, causing the result to be harsher and brighter. There are ways of doing feedback to get around this problem, but designers are loathe to even try it because of prejudice in their market. Its too bad, because the resulting amp could retain the same musical nature while being more transparent and having greater usable power (as I mention often, SETs really should not be used above about 20-25% of full power if you want to really hear what the amp is about).

In practical terms, the 300b tends to be the maximum power you can get (about 7-8 Watts) and still have the amplifier have 'hifi' response. The lower the power of the amp, the wider the bandwidth of the output transformer and so less phase shift as well. So a 2A3 amp will have greater bandwidth and the type 45 even more which is why its been King for some time, although IMO/IME 0.75 Watts is impractical. I've run 45s both SET and Push-pull and much prefer them in Push-pull as they are so much more musical- easier to make out lyrics, smoother on top, etc, plus of course considerably more power...
 

birdyy9

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I heard Komuro’s 212 monos and 845 monos many many times, unfortunately I haven’t heard this one. But I believe this VT-52 amp is the best 2 watt amplifier based on what I heard with other Komuro amps.

View attachment 100702

It uses VT-52 tubes which are similar to 45 tubes. Check the link for full article

https://6moons.com/audioreviews/roadtour16/roadtour16.html

BTW I spotted a CEC TL-0 on your OP. It’s a great sounding transport.
You're right, but in the picture you posted it's just the prototype.I had ordered from Nori the real thing.This is the best amplifier I've heard in my various audio systems in over 15 years (WE VT52 , WE 274b,Telefunken ECC801S)
 

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gleeds

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Destination Audio 45 monos are exceptional sounding 1.8 watts mono amplifiers - well built and reasonably priced too!
 
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christoph

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Destination Audio 45 monos are exceptional sounding 1.8 watts mono amplifiers - well built and reasonably priced too!
How much are they?
 
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Blue58

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A friend took a nice photo of my amps the other day and they’re sounding rather good at the moment even if I say so myself.

Running my EML Globe 45 V4 outputs driven by Tungsram nickel plate ECC83 and a reliable Amperex 5as4a rectifier. Electraprint PSS output transformers.

A sprinkling of Deulund, Vcap, Dynamicap etc and Audionote Niobium and Mills resistors under the hood. Mundorf Ag/Au strategically used throughout.
IMG_0671.jpeg
 

gleeds

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