First, we set up an empty room for a suitable response, then you move the chairs and speakers to get the best response. Sometimes you move the chair a few inches, sometimes the speakers. I dare say it doesn't have to be 100% symmetrical.
If its not symmetrical, why wouldn't side wall reflectuons arrive at different times and smear the sound.
When do you add the room treatments? Some peoples rooms are built with bass traps and diffuser in the walls. Others have a empty room.
I would venture a guess, room treatments are as, if not more important than perfect positioning of speaker and chair. The best rooms I have heard are purpose built and have a variety of treatments. The worst are a living room and one puropae built room that the owner decided not to purchase and install the ASC devices specified to fit the space. Serious echo and slap distortion as well as lacking bass and too much mid/high energy. No amount of speaker and chair positioning would fix it. Total disaster.
Rex, I don’t think it is as easy as you conclude. I would propose that in most dedicated - rectangular rooms, Listening position and speaker placement are the most important steps in finding the right sound. Room treatments come next.
In irregular rooms, say multipurpose L shape rooms, I could see how both steps might be equal OR one being more important than another. I just think you can make definitive statements on what is most important.
Every room setup is about tradeoffs.
That is why there are experts who make good money optimizing systems/rooms.
Rex, I don’t think it is as easy as you conclude. I would propose that in most dedicated - rectangular rooms, Listening position and speaker placement are the most important steps in finding the right sound. Room treatments come next.
In irregular rooms, say multipurpose L shape rooms, I could see how both steps might be equal OR one being more important than another. I just think you can make definitive statements on what is most important.
Every room setup is about tradeoffs.
That is why there are experts who make good money optimizing systems/rooms.
Did I say setup is easy? I think its super hard. I was asking how much room treatments play into setup. I doubt its only about the chair location and speaker location/positioning.
Did I say setup is easy? I think its super hard. I was asking how much room treatments play into setup. I doubt its only about the chair location and speaker location/positioning.
I was reacting to your preposition that room treatments were equal if not more important than positioning of your seat and the speakers - only making the point that IMHO, it’s not that simple.
Did I say setup is easy? I think its super hard. I was asking how much room treatments play into setup. I doubt its only about the chair location and speaker location/positioning.
It is also about speaker typology and speaker orientation. One must be careful choosing the system. A lot goes into it and almost every room that I have heard with audiophile acoustic treatments is over treated, and thus sounds lifeless. I often hear a lack of energy, nuance and ambience. Information on the recording gets lost and can’t be retrieved. The best rooms I have heard manage energy for a more natural presentation and do not absorb or remove much of that energy.
I was reacting to your preposition that room treatments were equal if not more important than positioning of your seat and the speakers - only making the point that IMHO, it’s not that simple.
ahh. I get what you mean. I agree to that sentiment. It may be a lot of people fight a bad room and would have a much easier time getting good sound if they addressed some room issues. I have always used a couple first reflection devices on side walls. As well as some carpet on the floor. One of the biggest bass gains as raising the speaker 9 inches off the floor. I assume it had to do with floor bounce.
It is also about speaker typology and speaker orientation. One must be careful choosing the system. A lot goes into it and almost every room that I have heard with audiophile acoustic treatments is over treated, and thus sounds lifeless. I often hear a lack of energy, nuance and ambience. Information on the recording gets lost and can’t be retrieved. The best rooms I have heard manage energy for a more natural presentation and do not absorb or remove much of that energy.
I was installing insulation at my house and filled my room with it to see what happened. Just playing around. I got it overdamped and heard that suck out. Otherwise I haven't been to a house with a nice system and noticed the room was overdamped. The rooms that I have been in that have intentional treatments sound fantastic. Think Mike, Marty, Rhapsody Portland, Jazdoc, Bob Tacoma.
I think room treatments have come a long ways. Bob uses all ASC. Many are set as diffusers. Its not just about absorption. I use to have a fagot of willow stick I would sit right next to the front outside edge of my Sonus Faber. It was great at breaking up the side reflections and getting rid of smear. They don't work with open baffle. But I currently have a 4 inch rigid fiberglass panel that sits about 12 inches from the wall at the first sidereflection that helps immensely. I have used it for years. It needs to be replaced with a better product. Its a simple home made device.
I think all systems need some amount of appropriate treatments. I have no idea if they will make placement of seat and speakers easier or harder or no impact outside making the room play better overall.
Did I say setup is easy? I think its super hard. I was asking how much room treatments play into setup. I doubt its only about the chair location and speaker location/positioning.
It's a total system thing; source, electronics, speakers, cabling and room!
Room dimensions conducive to good sound gives one a leg up. Proper location of listener and speakers makes a difference!
As far as room treatment I am a believer but the worst rooms I have heard are the ones that have been over treated. Usually in an attempt to treat a space that was to small and/or poorly dimensioned. So it may not be just a question of what treatment but how they are used.
In an attempt to to smooth out what I felt was a bass issue I auditioned with the encouragement of a local dealer some custom bass traps. Feeling that they were having a positive influence I ordered a pair customized for my corners, the pair I auditioned were not full height. The new traps made things sound different and I found myself repositioning the speakers to find that right spot. Long story short I found what I thought was a better placement but for a good part of a year I had a little niggle in my mind and often jiggled my speakers around. In between I had upgraded my speakers but the niggle remained. Finally one day a friend was over and on a whim I decided to remove the corner bass traps. When I turned on my system the effect was immediate, my jaw dropped and my friend said I've never heard your speakers sounds this good. The traps were quite literally sucking the life out of the sound! Probably very good for a small concert hall but not appropriate for my room.
Lessons learned. There are lots of room treatments available; it's OK to experiment but know what you are purchasing and when in doubt seek out some real expertise. It may not be available from your dealer or even from just any acoustician, it should be someone experienced with music system reproduction in small rooms.
The face of the woofer is 40-1/2" from the wall behind it, 20" from the face of the rack. Best I could do in this space so far. The side wall contains a wood stove that is problematic to the gear. I've considered trying them out a bit farther, but just haven't gotten around to it yet
i messed with my speakers of late. For the last few months I have been performing small tweaks. I made the big tweaks of puling them in and out and adjusting to the sidewalls. That really set the bass. Then I started towing the speakers in and out. That was soundstage width. Last night I worked with a laser and got them level. That was a little clarity. Never through the process did I find myself thinking the chair is here, and I have to deal with that, liked a fixed thing. I move back and forth maybe a few feet depending on my mood. Do I want to be near field and climb into the performance. Or do I want to be a little further out. How loud I am playing also influences where I want to sit.
It seams to me the speaker and the chair are sort of one and the same. You set the speakers about where you want them. Then move all around listening and taking REW sweeps and see what you got. Then move the speakers and do the same. Move around and see where that moves the seat and what the REW measurements are. Once you have a good idea where the speaker plays to a preferred seat position, you start to fine tune. That is what I did. Seemed to work for me.
FWIW, moving the speakers never seemed to have an impact on the tone. As in the way the speaker and amp produce a sound. The Naturalness or not. It only seems to change the bass and how well you can hear individual instruments in a complex performance. And the stage. Depth and width. That is what I hear.
FWIW, moving the speakers never seemed to have an impact on the tone. As in the way the speaker and amp produce a sound. The Naturalness or not. It only seems to change the bass and how well you can hear individual instruments in a complex performance. And the stage. Depth and width. That is what I hear.
Natural sound is about much more than just the tone. You listen to live unamplified music. It is all of that that you experience there. How much of it do you want to try to get from your system and room?
I have a good friend designing a horn speaker. A true all out assault. Aiming to perform better than any other out there. He did make a comment, w lot of it is limiting the deficiencies horns bring. I asked, does that mean you're trying to make a horn you can listen to everyday and not feel overwhelmed by. He said yes.
I get what your saying Peter. I think its few and far between to find a natural sounding horn that is also approachable as a every day, sit back and relax and don't think about the music, just enjoy it.
I like my open baffle. Perfect, No. My amps are better than any other out there. I played them back to back with my Dartzeel and the Blade walked all over them. Yes, the Blade is a Ferrari and took time to tune. Buy now that I have handle on what it wants, I would never look back.
The only device in my lineup I may replace if the phono preamp. Otherwise, I have a endgame setup. I will add a swarm of subs one day.
I have a good friend designing a horn speaker. A true all out assault. Aiming to perform better than any other out there. He did make a comment, w lot of it is limiting the deficiencies horns bring. I asked, does that mean you're trying to make a horn you can listen to everyday and not feel overwhelmed by. He said yes.
I get what your saying Peter. I think its few and far between to find a natural sounding horn that is also approachable as a every day, sit back and relax and don't think about the music, just enjoy it.
I listen to my horn system for hours a day, every day. I spent seven days straight, listening to Karmeli’s Bionor horn system. The only thing that overwhelms me is the music.
Regarding far and few between, I think that’s the case with all speaker types.
@PeterA
Did you ever mess with the horn placement. What is going on with your soundstage with them in the corner? I understand your speaker is designed to sit in a corner. But is it????? Just because the cabined it designed as a piece of furniture to be placed in a corner does not overcome the physics of a speaker. But then again, were talking about a horn. I ask as the best stereo with sound stage imaging all have the speakers well into the room. Almost a 3rd. They surely are not in the corners. Have you ever tried moving them into the room?
@PeterA
Did you ever mess with the horn placement. What is going on with your soundstage with them in the corner? I understand your speaker is designed to sit in a corner. But is it????? Just because the cabined it designed as a piece of furniture to be placed in a corner does not overcome the physics of a speaker. But then again, were talking about a horn. I ask as the best stereo with sound stage imaging all have the speakers well into the room. Almost a 3rd. They surely are not in the corners. Have you ever tried moving them into the room?
Hello Rex. Perhaps you didn’t follow along my many writings on the subject. Here’s a brief summary.:
I first heard the speakers located in the corners of David Karmeli’s smaller listening room. The wall construction was problematic so on my own initiative without telling David I move them out into the room and aim them straight ahead. And I listened and heard their potential more clearly, but the location was not optimal.
Their design specifically to fit in the corners because they have open backs and the two walls originating in the corner act as the flanges of the base horn. Using the walls is integral to the design of the speaker. This is not the case with the JBL Heartfields, which are often placed in the corners, but they have backs to them and can be placed out into the room with some success. I heard a pair of JBL Heartsfield’s not positioned in the corners recently in New York City.
My corner horns project the image forward so the presentation is more out into the room than was that of my Magicos for instance. There is however a surprising amount of depth and some instruments that are recessed in the stage are way behind the front wall of my room. The presentation is very big and open with good image specificity, though it is more about energy than it is about pinpoint imaging and stark outlines.
Having written all of that, my particular speakers need to be set up very carefully and symmetrically in the corners for best results. They are not simply jammed into the front corners of my room. It’s an old house and nothing is square so I improved the presentation with very careful placement within the corners. Both leveling the speakers, getting the exact angles to match and matching their heights. It all matters here.
The physics of my speaker design is optimized with very precise corner placement. I may sound like Bonzo here, but you really need to get out and start experiencing some of these things for yourself and perhaps then they will start to make sense to you.
Hello Rex. Perhaps you didn’t follow along my many writings on the subject. Here’s a brief summary.:
I first heard the speakers located in the corners of David Karmeli’s smaller listening room. The wall construction was problematic so on my own initiative without telling David I move them out into the room and aim them straight ahead. And I listened and heard their potential more clearly, but the location was not optimal.
Their design specifically to fit in the corners because they have open backs and the two walls originating in the corner act as the flanges of the base horn. Using the walls is integral to the design of the speaker. This is not the case with the JBL Heartfields, which are often placed in the corners, but they have backs to them and can be placed out into the room with some success. I heard a pair of JBL Heartsfield’s not positioned in the corners recently in New York City.
My corner horns project the image forward so the presentation is more out into the room than was that of my Magicos for instance. There is however a surprising amount of depth and some instruments that are recessed in the stage are way behind the front wall of my room. The presentation is very big and open with good image specificity, though it is more about energy than it is about pinpoint imaging and stark outlines.
Having written all of that, my particular speakers need to be set up very carefully and symmetrically in the corners for best results. They are not simply jammed into the front corners of my room. It’s an old house and nothing is square so I improved the presentation with very careful placement within the corners. Both leveling the speakers, getting the exact angles to match and matching their heights. It all matters here.
The physics of my speaker design is optimized with very precise corner placement. I may sound like Bonzo here, but you really need to get out and start experiencing some of these things for yourself and perhaps then they will start to make sense to you.
No need to be a snot in your last paragraph. I read the first 2 pages of your long thread.
Having said that , interesting. I looked up your speaker but did not notice the technical drawing was using the wall as a cabinet enclosure.
I did see where you say you pulled them out at Daves. Just does not make sense they create a deep soundstage when in a corner. But you say they do, so I accept that.
Getting out to see a well setup horn system in a non dealer location is fun. I know of 2 at the moment. I like them.both. But I also like what my system does. Since Christmas, my listening has been about 15% classical and about 2% jazz. The whole, your stereo needs to sound like live, unamplified instruments has no relevance to me. Not at the moment. But I am interested in sorting complex music where you hear all the parts and pieces. As well as good layering. Probably most important is not strident with speed and attack with balanced articulate bass.
I have always had an interest in horns. I like a lot of what I have heard. But I have yet to hear a horn that when blindfolded, you wouldn't say, thats a horn. And I have not seen an entry level priced horn that moves me at all.
