I’ve seen very little discussed on this specific topic, but welcome your thoughts. Also, if the listening chair placement is first, how do you go about it? Thanks.
What comes first: listening chair placement or speaker placement?
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There are other threads. Here is one recent one.
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Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization
This topic has been bounced around in several threads. More recently I have been documenting some of the setup steps I have been going through with the Avangarde Trios G3's. But since overall setup optimization is more general I thought I would post some information for the interested reader...
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Seems to me they (speakers and seat)are linked as an appropriate equilateral triangle. The length of the legs, in turn, is a function of room width as to properly couple the mids and create the correct soundstage width. Thus this triangle can somewhat move within the room depending on bass response and stage depth.
Jim Smith, a well known setup man, logically suggests you find the listening position that offers the smoothest bass first. Obviously within your room/space constraints. Then setup your speakers positions starting with a ratio of tweeter to tweeter : Ear to tweeter of 0.85. Then optimize from there.
An informal survey amongst another group I am in, showed all of us (~7 audiophiles) were at a ratio of 0.82 - 0.84. Some of those rooms were optimized by Sterling Trayle.
An informal survey amongst another group I am in, showed all of us (~7 audiophiles) were at a ratio of 0.82 - 0.84. Some of those rooms were optimized by Sterling Trayle.
Listening seat might be first, but in reality it's both. Once you've dialed in the speakers you may discover that some adjustment of listening seat position may still be beneficial.
No doubt. It is an optimization that we all know is completed in 1/4” moves.
The low end is the most difficult area to get right in any system setup so it makes sense to start with a listening position that gives you the best chance to get it all right.
Thank you for this thread. It reminds me that I have to get around to basic listening chair positioning and basic speaker tower positioning one of these months. 
I must not be too far off presently, which is why I have been unable to summon any desire to move these elements around, but we know (or I believe, anyway) that much of the "magic" in this hobby is in the last 10% or the last 5% of dialing things in optimally.
I must not be too far off presently, which is why I have been unable to summon any desire to move these elements around, but we know (or I believe, anyway) that much of the "magic" in this hobby is in the last 10% or the last 5% of dialing things in optimally.
there is no set answer. you start out with some sort of room<->speaker relationship philosophy.....say rule of thirds or fifths for the speakers out into the room, and the listening position at the top of the equilateral triangle. with recommended toe in from the speaker manufacturer.
that is just a basic starting point assuming a normal symmetrical rectangular domestic room. so many rooms are not 'normal', of course. or there are restrictions.
my feeling is that getting the speakers to breathe and scale properly, is at least as important as finding the best spot for bass to begin with. where is the music most free and easy sounding. might be the same spot as the bass spot too.
in my particular 29 foot long room, i had the front third of the room (first 10 feet) with wood composite flooring glued over the concrete; and expected to have the speakers up near the edge of that wood. that was my thinking 19 years ago, and that is where my speakers are today.
i did start out in the far field as far as seating, as that had been my comfort zone back then, and my room was very live and reflective. but now i'm in the nearfield.....for many reasons i have written much about.
that is just a basic starting point assuming a normal symmetrical rectangular domestic room. so many rooms are not 'normal', of course. or there are restrictions.
my feeling is that getting the speakers to breathe and scale properly, is at least as important as finding the best spot for bass to begin with. where is the music most free and easy sounding. might be the same spot as the bass spot too.
in my particular 29 foot long room, i had the front third of the room (first 10 feet) with wood composite flooring glued over the concrete; and expected to have the speakers up near the edge of that wood. that was my thinking 19 years ago, and that is where my speakers are today.
i did start out in the far field as far as seating, as that had been my comfort zone back then, and my room was very live and reflective. but now i'm in the nearfield.....for many reasons i have written much about.
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To further on Mike (L) & others' points above, I suggest that it all depends on whether you have a dedicated room or not:
a) dedicated room: optimise speaker placement, then place listening chair, because you can can place it anywhere it best pleases you - there are no constraints other than the sound
b) no deviated room: start with the best possible chair placement and take it from there.
But I have found (subjectively) that it is best to optimise speaker placement and then take on the other battles!
a) dedicated room: optimise speaker placement, then place listening chair, because you can can place it anywhere it best pleases you - there are no constraints other than the sound
b) no deviated room: start with the best possible chair placement and take it from there.
But I have found (subjectively) that it is best to optimise speaker placement and then take on the other battles!
Chair first. I have done it both ways many times and chair first wins. Think about it this way. When you are setting up your speakers you have to sit somewhere to evaluate the sound. The total sound -- bass, mids and highs. If you move your chair after that then your evaluation of that sound is no longer valid. e.g. the toe-in of the speakers will be very different. Once you optimize the listening position for smoothest bass you can proceed with speaker setup.
Get a copy of get better sound as suggested above. Jim details how to do this.
Of course if you want the max then you can iterate a little. For example, you now have the listening position and a good speaker set. You could re-evaluate to see if the chair needs to move 1/2" or inch or something small like that and then reset the speakers for an improved version of the first set.
Get a copy of get better sound as suggested above. Jim details how to do this.
Of course if you want the max then you can iterate a little. For example, you now have the listening position and a good speaker set. You could re-evaluate to see if the chair needs to move 1/2" or inch or something small like that and then reset the speakers for an improved version of the first set.
Do whatever floats your boat folks.
For me, since getting the Bass right is the hardest thing to do in most rooms, it just makes sense to give yourself the best chance at that by putting your listening position in its best position. Just one man’s opinion.
After that comes the fine tuning of soundstage imaging and depth, scale etc that Mike mentions.
For me, since getting the Bass right is the hardest thing to do in most rooms, it just makes sense to give yourself the best chance at that by putting your listening position in its best position. Just one man’s opinion.
After that comes the fine tuning of soundstage imaging and depth, scale etc that Mike mentions.
I think you need to consider both things at the same time if you have a room that allows for an ideal setup in either a Long Wall or Short Wall configuration. In these cases you certainly have a lot more work to do. I would imagine having the option for both configuration choices being potentially ideal is less common in most rooms though.
If you know off the bat that only one option from above could have the potential for being more "ideal" then I think the speaker placement comes first and from there the listening chair position will fall into place automatically. For the most part.
As others have mentioned, there may be a need to move the chair more forward or backwards or an inch or two in one direction or the other but you will still end up with your typical "Triangle" layout; unless your trying to reinvent the wheel for some reason.
I spent quite a bit of time dialing in the location of my speakers based on already generally knowing where the MLP would be (because in my room there was only one choice on where the speakers could go). From there, if any additional movements were needed of the chair itself I would do so with the guidance of taking many room sweep measurements to make that determination. If a move of the chair in one direction caused an undesirable bass Null or Boost then I would move the chair elsewhere until I got to a measurement that showed the best compromise of all choices previously tried (each sweep overlaid on top of each other to make it clear which one measured best).
Of course you need to listen to it all also to confirm but I'm one of those weirdo's who uses measurements as a primary guide first and foremost then from there I will listen to make sure there are no audible anomalies that don't show up on the measurements. Sometimes Phase issues are hard to pickup on the graphs without listening to it for confirmation. I've had this happen in the past. Charts looked great but it sounded wrong.
If you know off the bat that only one option from above could have the potential for being more "ideal" then I think the speaker placement comes first and from there the listening chair position will fall into place automatically. For the most part.
As others have mentioned, there may be a need to move the chair more forward or backwards or an inch or two in one direction or the other but you will still end up with your typical "Triangle" layout; unless your trying to reinvent the wheel for some reason.
I spent quite a bit of time dialing in the location of my speakers based on already generally knowing where the MLP would be (because in my room there was only one choice on where the speakers could go). From there, if any additional movements were needed of the chair itself I would do so with the guidance of taking many room sweep measurements to make that determination. If a move of the chair in one direction caused an undesirable bass Null or Boost then I would move the chair elsewhere until I got to a measurement that showed the best compromise of all choices previously tried (each sweep overlaid on top of each other to make it clear which one measured best).
Of course you need to listen to it all also to confirm but I'm one of those weirdo's who uses measurements as a primary guide first and foremost then from there I will listen to make sure there are no audible anomalies that don't show up on the measurements. Sometimes Phase issues are hard to pickup on the graphs without listening to it for confirmation. I've had this happen in the past. Charts looked great but it sounded wrong.
Both where your speakers are and where you are will affect reflections and modes in the room. So the somewhat complicated answer is that you need to find the best combination of the both speaker placement and listening position (within what's realistic in your room).
Generally it's beneficial if you can keep your listening position some distance away from any walls. The speakers could be close to or further from the walls depending on the room and your speakers.
Contrary to what may intuitively make sense, placing yourself asymmetrically in the room may be a good thing (so your listening position is not of equal distance to both side walls).
Generally it's beneficial if you can keep your listening position some distance away from any walls. The speakers could be close to or further from the walls depending on the room and your speakers.
Contrary to what may intuitively make sense, placing yourself asymmetrically in the room may be a good thing (so your listening position is not of equal distance to both side walls).
I have always done speakers first, then chair and ended up moving both a lot before i was happy. My main speakers have been omnies and dipoles for many years, they need a certain distance to front wall to function optimally. Having 4 towers and considerable adjustability in both active and passive crossovers are both a blessing and a curse.
This all makes sense.
Interesting. Because of bass reponse and bass nodes?
I suppose also in this asymmetrical case relative to room the position of listener to both *speakers* should still be symmetrical.
Totally agree with you here Lagonda! You do the initial speaker and chair setup with the normal parameters, then you will have to do small changes to both the speakers and chair to optimize everything - there is no other way. A good thing though is to take a few breaks once in a while (few days or weeks) to let the ears realax (so to speak) as it is very easy to get ”sound blind” while in the middle of all adjustments. Most important here is to know that the sound don’t just come over night. It takes time and effort to dial in and optimize a speaker / chair placement. Usually, with ever so small adjustments, -the big full sound will reveal it self over time.I have always done speakers first, then chair and ended up moving both a lot before i was happy. My main speakers have been omnies and dipoles for many years, they need a certain distance to front wall to function optimally. Having 4 towers and considerable adjustability in both active and passive crossovers are both a blessing and a curse.
/ Jk
As the foundational system/room set-up step in RoomPlay sessions, this is also the most pervasive, appearing in different scenarios from time-to-time.
Establishing the Anchor Point – locating your optimum listening position
Why would you spend time & effort moving your speakers around if your listening position hasn't been first established, so that you will have even smoother bass, and therefore better musical dynamics – a vital step in a more musically involving experience?
The negative effects resulting from not addressing this critical issue – the Anchor Point - simply cannot be overstated (hopefully, since I keep reinforcing it). Even so, I am constantly amazed at how many audiophiles, dealers, reviewers and manufacturers – and even some well-known set-up guys – miss this fundamental aspect of music reproduction. When I see them worrying about speaker placement without having discovered the basic listening position first, I cringe.
Certainly, better speaker placement (including distance away from the listener and from walls; speaker separation; toe-in; etc.) can make a real improvement, but it will never have been as powerful as it could have been had those steps been built on the foundation of first finding the best listening position – the Anchor Point for all else that follows.
Basically, we are concerned about the effects of room resonances in the bass/lower midrange (from 25-250 Hz). These resonances are related to the room dimensions, and to some extent, the shape of the room and the contents of the room. These resonances may appear as peaks in the response (phase reinforcement) or they may appear as dips (phase cancellation).
Essentially, these peaks & dips in the 25-250Hz region are part of the sonic signature of the room. Indeed, every room has these issues – no matter how much was spent on their design & execution – issues which are directly related to the room’s dimensions, and to some extent, its shape. It behooves the listener to locate a listening area where the room is most neutral (peaks and dips are minimized by locating the position that works with the room's dimensions, rather than against it). The ultimate result of ignoring this aspect is reduced musical dynamics (and thus - reduced musical engagement) as I have mentioned.
By most neutral listening area, I mean the area in the room where the bass is smoothest, not necessarily the deepest. In other words, the room’s resonant peaks are diminished and its resonant suck-outs are less deep.
Establishing the Anchor Point – locating your optimum listening position
Why would you spend time & effort moving your speakers around if your listening position hasn't been first established, so that you will have even smoother bass, and therefore better musical dynamics – a vital step in a more musically involving experience?
The negative effects resulting from not addressing this critical issue – the Anchor Point - simply cannot be overstated (hopefully, since I keep reinforcing it). Even so, I am constantly amazed at how many audiophiles, dealers, reviewers and manufacturers – and even some well-known set-up guys – miss this fundamental aspect of music reproduction. When I see them worrying about speaker placement without having discovered the basic listening position first, I cringe.
Certainly, better speaker placement (including distance away from the listener and from walls; speaker separation; toe-in; etc.) can make a real improvement, but it will never have been as powerful as it could have been had those steps been built on the foundation of first finding the best listening position – the Anchor Point for all else that follows.
Basically, we are concerned about the effects of room resonances in the bass/lower midrange (from 25-250 Hz). These resonances are related to the room dimensions, and to some extent, the shape of the room and the contents of the room. These resonances may appear as peaks in the response (phase reinforcement) or they may appear as dips (phase cancellation).
Essentially, these peaks & dips in the 25-250Hz region are part of the sonic signature of the room. Indeed, every room has these issues – no matter how much was spent on their design & execution – issues which are directly related to the room’s dimensions, and to some extent, its shape. It behooves the listener to locate a listening area where the room is most neutral (peaks and dips are minimized by locating the position that works with the room's dimensions, rather than against it). The ultimate result of ignoring this aspect is reduced musical dynamics (and thus - reduced musical engagement) as I have mentioned.
By most neutral listening area, I mean the area in the room where the bass is smoothest, not necessarily the deepest. In other words, the room’s resonant peaks are diminished and its resonant suck-outs are less deep.
I really agree that in order to set up your speakers you have to have a place to sit and listen. How do you poisition speakers if you arent sitting and listening to them?
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