What determines "believability of the reproduction illusion"

[bonzo75]

The anima is not av transparent speaker. In fact it has a very strong character

 

[fas42]

That's interesting ... how would you describe that strong character?

 

[Ron Resnick]

The anima is not av transparent speaker. . . .

A-ha! The Anima is one of the horn speakers in Munich which I felt was not very transparent on vocals.

 

[bonzo75]

A-ha! The Anima is one of the horn speakers in Munich which I felt was not very transparent on vocals.

When I used the word transparent I meant in a neutral sense, not the see-through electrostat transparency you like, but yes, anima is not that either. Vocals are throaty with texture and I love that on this speaker. The speaker is not perfect and I can hear it's flaws, yet it sounds good. The Acapella is a more electrostat like speaker, but the model in that video and the violin cell have that box active bass.

 

[fas42]

Okay, I tracked down several other videos of the Anima, and I take your point - there is a characteristic there, which just happened to suit the music in my link.

 

[Steve williams]

Okay, I tracked down several other videos of the Anima, and I take your point - there is a characteristic there, which just happened to suit the music in my link.

Frank

IMO you are grasping at straws with these videos based on what other people are stating about live experience listening. Perhaps you might want to consider getting out more and listening to live music.

 

[morricab]

Impossibilities? ddk's system, and others have done the job, I'm thinking here of muralman - what offends many is that I pursue the task using "cheap stuff" - very simple reason why, as I have also stated many times; if I stuff up, no great loss, and sometimes I might need to do major surgery, what's the point of "ruining" units whose value lies much in the bling? Plus, it's an investigation of what matters, the cheaper you go the more you learn ...

What the Philips did was deliver convincing sound if I made all the right efforts, "audiophile spectacular" was not on the job sheet - some here are catching on to the importance of debugging, eliminating weaknesses, simplifying - that's all that's been going on in my audio world. Since a simple recipe for doing this can't be delivered, somehow that nullifies what I do ... all I can say, is that it's your loss if you're not able to take any of this on board ...

I don't think you can achieve believability by tweaking gear that is fundamentally flawed. That is not to say that most very expensive pieces of gear are not flawed, they are but nearly ALL cheap gear is fundamentally flawed.

Tweaking might make it tolerable or maybe even good but that is still a long way from believable.

 

[morricab]

The qualities of a system I look for is that they don't get in the way of the music - I have zero interest in the speakers sounding like "something special", I want them to be invisible, pure and simple. And these two examples do that - they stop me focusing on the speakers, and the system - it's the music that is centre stage.

This is what the believability illusion is about - that the bits used for achieving it become totally irrelevant, they're merely a means to an end ...

What you have to realize is that a speaker that truly gets out of the way IS something special and rare. It is even more rare if the electronics get out of the way.

 

[Rodney Gold]

Nearly All cheap gear is fundamentally flawed ?

 

[PeterA]

The qualities of a system I look for is that they don't get in the way of the music - I have zero interest in the speakers sounding like "something special", I want them to be invisible, pure and simple. And these two examples do that - they stop me focusing on the speakers, and the system - it's the music that is centre stage.

This is what the believability illusion is about - that the bits used for achieving it become totally irrelevant, they're merely a means to an end ...

Excellent post. Not knowing who wrote this and without specific reference to a particular system or music, these words represent one very valid approach to enjoying our hobby, IMO.

 

[fas42]

Frank

IMO you are grasping at straws with these videos based on what other people are stating about live experience listening. Perhaps you might want to consider getting out more and listening to live music.

Steve, you're not appreciating that I've been doing this for some 30 years - I constantly grab on to instances of live music to correlate system sound with the qualities of the real thing - anything that uses sound reinforcement is completely ignored, and since the latter is usually pretty rubbishy this is pretty easy to do !

When I first listen the only thing that I am searching for are the tell tale signs of audio system artifacts, distortions; all the giveaways that the sound is being faked - if I can't pick any up then I can relax and go with the music ... as many here have said, much music reproduction is technically OK but an aspect of your hearing is aware that there is something not quite right, and you steadily become more disturbed, uneasy while listening. I've learned to quickly pinpoint these anomalies - and as soon as I hear them it's game over, irrespective of how impressive the system is in other respects

 

[fas42]

What you have to realize is that a speaker that truly gets out of the way IS something special and rare. It is even more rare if the electronics get out of the way.

Not in my experience. My only priority for the last 30 years is to have the system disappear - note I said system, not speaker; because it is the functioning of the whole that makes it happen, subjectively. In retrospect, it is quite remarkable how low one can go in the food chain of "quality" and still get this behaviour - the downside is that much more effort has to be put into tweaking, and adjusting the environment to get there, with cheaper stuff. But I'm a masochist! For some strange reason, , I get satisfaction from pushing the envelope in this regard - plus, learn a lot.

Obviously, very high quality components should make the job much easier - the big problem is, how keen are you going to be to start hacking stuff to get over the necessary hurdles, considering the resale value of these items in untouched state ... ??

 

[NorthStar]

Excellent post. Not knowing who wrote this and without specific reference to a particular system or music, these words represent one very valid approach to enjoying our hobby, IMO.

Frank wrote it. And I agree; when the music and only the music envelops you and makes everything disappear around you, except the forests, the jungles, the oceans, the rivers, the mountains, the wildlife, the blue sky, ... then the illusion is in harmony and complete.

To fairly compare systems and rooms, the same music from the same source has to (IMO) be reproduced in the same set of ears.

 

[fas42]

As a counter to my earlier links, here is an AVshowreports effort, just posted, using components that tick all the boxes for most people - I personally have heard CH Precision doing excellent stuff ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_81s9fTNTA

But this is a fail, for me - does anyone pick what I'm hearing being wrong in the sound?

 

[NorthStar]

Lots of distortion entering the room, and consequently creating gross sibilance.

The distortion is so bad that it is extremely painful...not Peter's best video presentation that's for sure. It sounded like his mic was choking on some barb wire around the jail's court yard.
...Razor sharp cutting and splitting my ear canals into smithereens. ...Like bleeding small pieces of broken mirrors falling on the cement floor.
___________

Frank, audio is about sound right? Those youtube videos are not about sound, they are about visual promotional audio dealer's products.
If they want to sell audio quality sound the'd better use professional microphones in those youtube videos; put the energy where it counts the most.

This is all futile; cell phones, even video cams won't cut it. Peter's videos...some are great sounding ones, but I highly doubt that he's using a state-of-the-art mic.
And only in some he is sitting in the sweet spot without moving.

Mike's earlier video...he's constantly moving and present in the room for just couple minutes @ most. ...And with a Nexus 6 android.
Those are not the best illusions. ...They are not fair, and are not representative of reality; they are inferior 'mickey mouse' on the go aperçus.
They're just fun to look @.

I trust the people's ears who frequently frequented many dedicated high-end rooms, and not hotel's rooms used for audio shows.
And those from the younger sets of ears. ...After 40 I am cautious.

We are missing so much of the good attributes in this audio hobby; and the accent is always a financial one...nobody is taking the time and interest in investing in a good microphone and in bringing some acoustic panels for their room demo, only the exception. That tells us all we need to know about the direction of this audio business.

It is sad because it doesn't take much effort to improve this great hobby for all the young generations. Instead they'll all fall down in our own footsteps of confusion and extravaganza and distortion from over the top false claimed exaggerations. And that's not the same playfield for everyone but only the ones @ the very top of this perfect audio ladder vision.

In that sense it is a private club, for the high heeled ones. I'm 100% fine with that; but forget youtube videos. We're all after being lost in the music, and I'd rather get lost @ home in my own believable illusions. But what's cool with those videos is that sometimes we discover new music we love.

You remember those top organ videos we posted in the past? How can they represent "being there"? ...And videos of full orchestras in some of the best world's concert halls///

* John started this thread, the first original post. And he quoted you too in that first original post; it's good to go back and reread it...I did few times myself already...to keep me in check, on the edge of sharpness. :b ? http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-illusion-quot&p=397690&viewfull=1#post397690

 

[BruceD]

As a counter to my earlier links, here is an AVshowreports effort, just posted, using components that tick all the boxes for most people - I personally have heard CH Precision doing excellent stuff ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_81s9fTNTA

But this is a fail, for me - does anyone pick what I'm hearing being wrong in the sound?

No?--

Please enlighten us with your Wisdom on these misgivings the rest of us are being subjected to

Bruce D

 

[fas42]

So Bob is hearing a lot of distortion, but Bruce doesn't hear a problem - with that video ... is that correct?

 

[Lee]

I think I learned a lot from the Chicago Axpona demo of the new Alexx speakers this year. One thing Wilson does really well is preserve the timing aspects of playback. All the best systems I have heard seem to have the timing elements sorted out.

But overall, reproducing events to be believable compared to the live event is hard. I've been doing professional recordings since 1990 and a lot of technical progress has been made but at the end of the day it seems to be both art and science. I think mic placement is the #1 factor on any original recording. I think using a simple recording chain is also important (although some of Mark Waldrep's AIX recordings prove me wrong on that). Then I think a high resolution format like reel, LP, or hirez digital is needed and a clean mastering. Then you need a great stereo based on a magical amp-speaker combination, a good preamp, and then good sources. So a lot must be right.

However, when all these things come together, it can be magical and very realistic.

 

[fas42]

Then you need a great stereo based on a magical amp-speaker combination, a good preamp, and then good sources. So a lot must be right.

However, when all these things come together, it can be magical and very realistic.

IME, everything must be right, in the "stereo" - the playback chain and its environment. As said, this can be hard, infuriatingly frustrating is what I would call it, - doesn't mean the sound isn't good to listen to on the way there, it certainly bests most stuff out there in the areas that matter, with regard to the believability stakes. But to get over the final hurdle, of always being convincing, takes much doing - the closer you get, the harder, or more painstaking, it is to inch your way right up to that ultimate goal.

 

[Robh3606]

I constantly grab on to instances of live music to correlate system sound with the qualities of the real thing - anything that uses sound reinforcement is completely ignored, and since the latter is usually pretty rubbishy this is pretty easy to do !

Hello Frank

So Let me get this straight. You can't do live music using sound reinforcement because it's all rubbish. But you can use You Tube videos to judge the sound of the systems in the video?? You don't see the contradiction there??

Rob