What determines "believability of the reproduction illusion"

[Mike Lavigne]

Just came across this YouTube video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ynac5mvrcQ0, of the Newport show, and at the beginning these is a demo with nominally high performing components, using big Evolution Acoustic speakers - with truly awful, "hifi" sound. How many times does one bump into this - a thousand miles from being believeable, all that money thrown at it with little audible benefit ...

Frank,

I was sitting in the back row (you can see me) during this video that Mike took. I've known Mike and Neli for 15 years. and I bought that tape that was playing during the video and played that same cut from that same tape Tuesday night for 30+ members of my audio club.

your perspective on making some wild ass sonic conclusion based on that I-phone video is absurd. while the sound at Newport was not quite to what we heard Tuesday night in my room here, it was fantastic none the less. maybe some who heard it Tuesday night might chime in.

you are a troll just stirring the crap.

 

[fas42]

Frank, I was sitting in the back row (you can see me) during this video that Mike took. I've known Mike and Neli for 15 years. and I bought that tape that was playing during the video and played that same cut from that same tape Tuesday night for 30+ members of my audio club. your perspective on making some wild ass sonic conclusion based on that I-phone video is absurd. while the sound at Newport was not quite to what we heard Tuesday night in my room here, it was fantastic none the less. maybe some who heard it Tuesday night might chime in. you are a troll just stirring the crap.

No, I'm not. I have already pointed out what I thought was "incorrect", in that recording, in an earlier post - do you disagree with what I said as regards the sound in the video, whether it comes from the phone, or possibly the system? If you agree with some of my assessment, in what way was the phone getting the details wrong compared to what you heard? If the phone was severely defective, why do other systems elsewhere in the series of videos of the show come across comparatively well?

 

[NorthStar]

I just lighted a cigarillo by its filter side...from last line of Mike's post.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

No, I'm not. I have already pointed out what I thought was "incorrect", in that recording, in an earlier post - do you disagree with what I said as regards the sound in the video, whether it comes from the phone, or possibly the system? If you agree with some of my assessment, in what way was the phone getting the details wrong compared to what you heard? If the phone was severely defective, why do other systems elsewhere in the series of videos of the show come across comparatively well?

rationalize any way you want. your comments are simply sh*t stirring and have no basis in reality.

like any troll you post for effect and attention.

I was there.

 

[fas42]

rationalize any way you want. your comments are simply sh*t stirring and have no basis in reality. like any troll you post for effect and attention. I was there.

Just before I read your post I tried replaying this video, yet again, and asked Bev's thoughts on the qualities as they came across, this time comparing the EA with the MBL room, which follows in the clip. To me, and her, the MBL sound is in a different class - what do you suggest is the cause of that?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Just before I read your post I tried replaying this video, yet again, and asked her thoughts on the qualities as they came across, this time comparing the EA with the MBL room, which follows in the clip. To me, and her, the MBL sound is in a different class - what do you suggest is the cause of that?

so you want to put lipstick on your pig.

it's still a pig.

 

[fas42]

Mike, I'm sorry to come across like this, but I've been listening for anomalies in the sound which undermine the believability of the illusion for yonks, and the EA presentation caught in that instance pressed a lot of the buttons for me - if the real band had been performing in that room the sound would be different, very different, irrespective of the quality of the recorder. And that's what kicked off my original comment - how close is what you hear capturing the musical signature of the original event.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, I'm sorry to come across like this, but I've been listening for anomalies in the sound which undermine the believability of the illusion for yonks, and the EA presentation caught in that instance pressed a lot of the buttons for me - if the real band had been performing in that room the sound would be different, very different, irrespective of the quality of the recorder. And that's what kicked off my original comment - how close is what you hear capturing the musical signature of the original event.

once trolling, it is hard to back down. I get that.

but it does not change the reality of what you are doing in this thread.

I've made my point and won't feed the rhetoric any longer.

 

[NorthStar]

Frank,

I was sitting in the back row (you can see me) during this video that Mike took. I've known Mike and Neli for 15 years. and I bought that tape that was playing during the video and played that same cut from that same tape Tuesday night for 30+ members of my audio club.

You wear black glasses too Mike? ... @ 2:52 (right rear corner against the wall...with a black T-shirt and shorts).

______

______

Bonus:

[video=dailymotion;x2xssge]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2xssge_2pac-ft-bill-withers-just-the-two-of-us-lej-edit_music[/video]

 

[FrantzM]

once trolling, it is hard to back down. I get that.

but it does not change the reality of what you are doing in this thread.

I've made my point and won't feed the rhetoric any longer.

Finally someone calling it as it sees it ...fas has been yanking us for a very long time and with a straight face... From his HTIB that would better most things out there to his search to eliminate noise in ways only him knows how. Subtle at times, throwing things that some audiophiles here like to latch on thus finding more traction only to swerve and come back with more of those impossibilities

 

[Mike Lavigne]

You wear black glasses too Mike? ... @ 2:52 (right rear corner against the wall...with a black T-shirt and shorts).

no.

at 2:28-2:32 looking back at the center seating I'm to the far right (from the camera perspective) back row (left side from the listening perspective) with the 'bald' head (hair cut short).

the camera perspective puts me on the edge of the side of the speaker.

as the camera enters the room you can also see my legs and shoes along the rear row.

 

[fas42]

Finally someone calling it as it sees it ...fas has been yanking us for a very long time and with a straight face... From his HTIB that would better most things out there to his search to eliminate noise in ways only him knows how. Subtle at times, throwing things that some audiophiles here like to latch on thus finding more traction only to swerve and come back with more of those impossibilities

Impossibilities? ddk's system, and others have done the job, I'm thinking here of muralman - what offends many is that I pursue the task using "cheap stuff" - very simple reason why, as I have also stated many times; if I stuff up, no great loss, and sometimes I might need to do major surgery, what's the point of "ruining" units whose value lies much in the bling? Plus, it's an investigation of what matters, the cheaper you go the more you learn ...

What the Philips did was deliver convincing sound if I made all the right efforts, "audiophile spectacular" was not on the job sheet - some here are catching on to the importance of debugging, eliminating weaknesses, simplifying - that's all that's been going on in my audio world. Since a simple recipe for doing this can't be delivered, somehow that nullifies what I do ... all I can say, is that it's your loss if you're not able to take any of this on board ...

 

[NorthStar]

no.

at 2:28-2:32 looking back at the center seating I'm to the far right (from the camera perspective) back row (left side from the listening perspective) with the 'bald' head (hair cut short).

the camera perspective puts me on the edge of the side of the speaker.

as the camera enters the room you can also see my legs and shoes along the rear row.

That is exactly the guy I was referring to; @ 2:51-2:54 and same @ 2:28-2:32 ... that guy @ the back of the room, on the right (cam's perspective), you (wearing shorts and black runners...@ 1:11-1:12).

* I take the best out of this thread, and the rest I leave @ the door. It was fun to meet Mike Davis and his wife Neli, Jonathan with his glasses made from recycled vinyl, and reading all the other comments from the other members. ...Plus listening to some music between. ...And all here, online @ WBF.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Subtle at times, throwing things that some audiophiles here like to latch on thus finding more traction only to swerve and come back with more of those impossibilities

Frantz,

Some audiophiles have read elsewhere from other people carrying discussions on similar subjects and its importance on sound quality. Although I can not excuse the troll behavior of Frank in this particular matter of the EA room, some aspects he addresses such as the elimination of noise are of great interest and deserve a discussion. Also for the use of recordings to access room sound quality.

Something does not become an impossibility because it is improperly referred by Frank. We should not throw the baby with the water.

I only hope things settle and we can go on debating what is important. John Curl (I think you know who he is ...) had a very interesting contribution on these matters in electronic equipment in another forum and I would like to point to it without such noisy background.

 

[FrantzM]

Frantz,

Some audiophiles have read elsewhere from other people carrying discussions on similar subjects and its importance on sound quality. Although I can not excuse the troll behavior of Frank in this particular matter of the EA room, some aspects he addresses such as the elimination of noise are of great interest and deserve a discussion. Also for the use of recordings to access room sound quality.

Something does not become an impossibility because it is improperly referred by Frank. We should not throw the baby with the water.

I only hope things settle and we can go on debating what is important. John Curl (I think you know who he is ...) had a very interesting contribution on these matters in electronic equipment in another forum and I would like to point to it without such noisy background.

Not verbatim but let me try something to the effect of what we are discussing here...

What matters.. Vague reference to noise? To listening through an mp3 and making definitive opinions on the quality or lack thereof ? To secrets on how to make of an HTIB a world beater? and other too numerous to list?

I'll just drop it off .. Please continue the OP discussion...

 

[fas42]

Very noticeable difference in the quality of that synthetic sound at the start of the song - it has much more texture & interest in the vinyl replay - haven't listened to the rest of the song!

John, that's interesting ... for me, the DSD version was markedly better, for a variety of reasons; most of which had to do with the fact that the lower level elements in the song came through more cleanly, more "correct" ...

 

[fas42]

As reference points, here are two show captures that contain the type of qualities I look for, which come through easily in the clip ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4TUGe3eHjE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K-fJR3W6P4

 

[NorthStar]

Here's Neli, Mike's Davis lovely wife.

_______

* Hey Frank, that second video was cool; I liked that tune, and the system both looks and sounds great. ...The room.
{And I have not a single glue about the microphone; it don't matter to me...I just had a nice illusion of a reproduction.}

 

[bonzo75]

As reference points, here are two show captures that contain the type of qualities I look for, which come through easily in the clip ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4TUGe3eHjE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K-fJR3W6P4

Not only do I know both rooms well (the Anima from Munich this year and the Acapella was last year in the satellite show, not sure if it was this year as well), I have heard the Anima up close many times and like them, and I have heard the Acapellas many times. Both videos and especially the music being used to highlight their qualities brings out nothing.

 

[fas42]

Not only do I know both rooms well (the Anima from Munich this year and the Acapella was last year in the satellite show, not sure if it was this year as well), I have heard the Anima up close many times and like them, and I have heard the Acapellas many times. Both videos and especially the music being used to highlight their qualities brings out nothing.

The qualities of a system I look for is that they don't get in the way of the music - I have zero interest in the speakers sounding like "something special", I want them to be invisible, pure and simple. And these two examples do that - they stop me focusing on the speakers, and the system - it's the music that is centre stage.

This is what the believability illusion is about - that the bits used for achieving it become totally irrelevant, they're merely a means to an end ...