I know it is stressful, I have had a room at a show when I was a dealer in the past for KR Audio.
What determines "believability of the reproduction illusion"
- Thread starter jkeny
- Start date
I know it is stressful, I have had a room at a show when I was a dealer in the past for KR Audio.
I have heard many of these rooms or very similar configurations with the gear in question many times so I could say that about a lot of the videos being shot. It is also pretty easy to tell if the recording itself is really poor.
FWIW, I am not talking about videos shot with a smartphone. I am quite sure the AVshowrooms are shot with something significantly better as were the ones from Aries Cerat.
1. Vinyl is on an escalating renewed financial interest. Turntables are back and they look splendid. Vinyls are being made better. ...Same with tapes (and the machines too).
2. Hi-res music downloads and music services from Roon and Tidal is the 2016 vogue.
3. Audiophile audio shows are happening all over.
Youtube videos of audio shows are the closest sound experience that 99.99% of the population can get.
Images alone don't sell sound. If they do then not all priorities are in balance.
The more exposition people who know nothing about sound quality (audiophile music) they can have that's the goal today of promoting our sport.
Mike presented five videos from the Newport audio show, with his Nexus 6 phone. Cool but it's missing few important things...primarily a good recording microphone that can capture better the room's sound signature.
Peter's videos (picture & sound) are more representative of the room's sound with a better quality microphone integrated in his video camera.
The better equipment to record the sound @ all the audio shows, the closer to the sound experience all people who don't know a thing about audio quality will be.
There are some audio sites using some of the best cameras in the world and the pictures of the audio gear just makes us wanting to go out and purchase the beautiful gear for our homes as art objects and trophies of pride. ...Gorgeous audio porn pictures.
I guess they don't carry quality microphones @ those audio shows because it would affect sales from those awful sounding rooms...in general.
Or I might be wrong too; it could propel sales to a new level never seen before.
* Check this out: If you are a professional audio dealer, have rooms that are acoustically/professionally treated, put the right audio gear you are selling in those rooms, the loudspeakers you are selling, and play the type of music everyone love (classical opera), then record it with the best microphones and post those recordings on youtube @ 720p high-def picture and hi-res sound (192Kbps). That way you'll sell much more audio products...I sincerely believe.
The only people who take the time to go in person to audio shows and audio dealer rooms are audiophiles (less than 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the population). Expand your reaches, make quality youtube videos, like Peter and others do. Forget your Sony Ericsson, Motorolla X, LG Intrepid, Samsumg S9, iPhone GSummit, ...buy the best video/audio recorders and make quality youtube videos. Within only few years you'd be able to retire comfortably in the Alps near Austria. ...And buy tickets for classical opera music concerts...live.
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2. Hi-res music downloads and music services from Roon and Tidal is the 2016 vogue.
3. Audiophile audio shows are happening all over.
Youtube videos of audio shows are the closest sound experience that 99.99% of the population can get.
Images alone don't sell sound. If they do then not all priorities are in balance.
The more exposition people who know nothing about sound quality (audiophile music) they can have that's the goal today of promoting our sport.
Mike presented five videos from the Newport audio show, with his Nexus 6 phone. Cool but it's missing few important things...primarily a good recording microphone that can capture better the room's sound signature.
Peter's videos (picture & sound) are more representative of the room's sound with a better quality microphone integrated in his video camera.
The better equipment to record the sound @ all the audio shows, the closer to the sound experience all people who don't know a thing about audio quality will be.
There are some audio sites using some of the best cameras in the world and the pictures of the audio gear just makes us wanting to go out and purchase the beautiful gear for our homes as art objects and trophies of pride. ...Gorgeous audio porn pictures.
I guess they don't carry quality microphones @ those audio shows because it would affect sales from those awful sounding rooms...in general.
Or I might be wrong too; it could propel sales to a new level never seen before.
* Check this out: If you are a professional audio dealer, have rooms that are acoustically/professionally treated, put the right audio gear you are selling in those rooms, the loudspeakers you are selling, and play the type of music everyone love (classical opera), then record it with the best microphones and post those recordings on youtube @ 720p high-def picture and hi-res sound (192Kbps). That way you'll sell much more audio products...I sincerely believe.
The only people who take the time to go in person to audio shows and audio dealer rooms are audiophiles (less than 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the population). Expand your reaches, make quality youtube videos, like Peter and others do. Forget your Sony Ericsson, Motorolla X, LG Intrepid, Samsumg S9, iPhone GSummit, ...buy the best video/audio recorders and make quality youtube videos. Within only few years you'd be able to retire comfortably in the Alps near Austria. ...And buy tickets for classical opera music concerts...live.
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Mike is a cool guy (Nexus 6 phone), the video link posted by Frank...and the subject of our "illusion" audio discussion...all towards the goal of believability of the music reproduction.
All is fair within the confinement of the tools available and proper balance context. The business is to expand our hobby, to be more happy with our ears, and bank accounts.
All of us we want to retire comfy and travel the world to the most exotic places and eat the best food and drink the best wines and share all of it with our families...wives and children. The ultimate reach is peace, health, happiness, and for everyone. Yes?
Now, which one would you be interested to purchase, if you weren't an audiophile, this one?
Or this one?
Or this one?
__________
Imagine yourself as a non-audiophile (99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%+ of the population); what of the three videos above would attract you the most?
1. The picture quality?
2. The people talking?
3. The sound quality?
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And assuming you are from the middle class...average money earner.
* I only mentioned this because for most people (99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999%+) it counts.
Another point: The 'Music'. The music we play and we love is not the same music she plays and she loves.
That's the toughest part in my humble music experience. If I was a pro audio businessman and selling audio gear, I would also be a pro music salesman of each music genre for each one of my customers. I'm not a disco dance type disc jockey, I'm an audio salesman, and I don't sell to groups, but exclusively to each individual music lover taste. I'm a pro audio guy, so I know what it takes to have personal relationships where it counts the most. I'm only assuming here, because in real life I am not an audio dealer, I am an artist.
All is fair within the confinement of the tools available and proper balance context. The business is to expand our hobby, to be more happy with our ears, and bank accounts.
All of us we want to retire comfy and travel the world to the most exotic places and eat the best food and drink the best wines and share all of it with our families...wives and children. The ultimate reach is peace, health, happiness, and for everyone. Yes?
Now, which one would you be interested to purchase, if you weren't an audiophile, this one?
Or this one?
Or this one?
__________
Imagine yourself as a non-audiophile (99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%+ of the population); what of the three videos above would attract you the most?
1. The picture quality?
2. The people talking?
3. The sound quality?
________
And assuming you are from the middle class...average money earner.
* I only mentioned this because for most people (99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999%+) it counts.
Another point: The 'Music'. The music we play and we love is not the same music she plays and she loves.
That's the toughest part in my humble music experience. If I was a pro audio businessman and selling audio gear, I would also be a pro music salesman of each music genre for each one of my customers. I'm not a disco dance type disc jockey, I'm an audio salesman, and I don't sell to groups, but exclusively to each individual music lover taste. I'm a pro audio guy, so I know what it takes to have personal relationships where it counts the most. I'm only assuming here, because in real life I am not an audio dealer, I am an artist.
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Yes. As I have noted many times, there are YouTube clips which are recordings of systems that convey an excellent sense of the musicians performing - they do not sound like a hifi system! Which is the primary goal of the believability exercise - that the end system conveys the sensation of being in the presence of the event while being recorded, and is not just an impressive "painting", interpretation of it!
The hangup about listening on tiny speakers, etc, continues - if I listen to an ambitious system playing a certain, known recording over those speakers, and then immediately listen to the actual album recording itself, perhaps from a YouTube clip, over that very same same system and speakers, then there should be an very good correlation! It won't sound exactly the same of course, but if the tonality, level of detail, quality of treble is dramatically different then something is not right. And I'm guessing here that the system playback might be the culprit!
System playback may be impressive, but that's not the same thing as being accurate - when I walked in to that Bryston and Dynaudio show demo, my ears pricked up as far as they could go; he was playing a track from Paul Simon's Graceland at that moment, and I thought, My God, this one's nailed it !! It was like bumping into an old friend, all the qualities of the track which should be in place were there - sweetness, clarity, depth, detail down to the finest level - this was music, pure and simple. Nothing I asked to be played showed the slightest hint of "fakeness"; plus, he could push the volume way beyond what I've achieved, with no degradation whatsoever! Now, if I had happened to have a half decent recorder with me, at that moment, I'm 100% sure that a good percentage of those qualities would come through on a clip, it would be recognisable as quality sound ...
Nice one, Bob ... :b
On a quick listen, I rank them:
1
3
2
IOW, the Believe at Newport first,then the Arts, then the other Believe ...
Me:
2 ? I would buy that system (video #2) as my number one, because the sound is the best. And I would listen to that system a lot.
3 ? Second best (video #3), for the sound and the music selection. But I'm not crazy @ the complexity between the two speakers.
1 ? Last (video #1), doesn't sound loud enough and the music selection I like though. And the speakers are not decor friendly...too boxy for my friends, mainly girls.
2 ? I would buy that system (video #2) as my number one, because the sound is the best. And I would listen to that system a lot.
3 ? Second best (video #3), for the sound and the music selection. But I'm not crazy @ the complexity between the two speakers.
1 ? Last (video #1), doesn't sound loud enough and the music selection I like though. And the speakers are not decor friendly...too boxy for my friends, mainly girls.
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Steve, I had my Nirvana 30 years ago :b - everything since has been the process of exploring it ... and part of that journey entails going down different tracks which lead one nowhere - I accept that. You had the moment I experienced three decades ago just recently on ddk's system - so at least you understand that. By nature I'm a scientist, if something is very different from the normally accepted pattern then my instincts are to explore it, see what's going on - that's been a major part of my activities, playing with things in an attempt to understand the behind the scenes mechanisms - the ASA work I recently was brought to focus on is a major chunk of the jigsaw filled ...
Bob, you just like being ornery!! Completely back to front - now, if people have a good listen they just might be able to work out why Bob and I are at opposite ends here ...
, .
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Frank
There is an illness in medicine called fibromyalgia that many doctors feel is a grab bag for a big nothing yet so many people comment on having the symptoms that it continues to be investigated and treated but no confirmation of a diagnosis is forthcoming as it is really difficult if not impossible to diagnose let alone treat. I have a similar feeling when I hear about your discovery ASA and suddenly 35 years of your research has opened all of these windows for you. It is almost a place where you can explain why the room doesn't matter or why only one channel is necessary as your mind can fill in and create all of the missing parts. It seems all too easy for you to use ASA rather than basic givens that we who listen to music accept. Now this doesn't mean that I am discounting ASA but I am discounting your abilities to use it as an epiphany for your last 35 years. As for David's system, I had the same epiphany but when all was said and done I am totally happy with my system. If you achieved it 35 years ago where is it now
Finally I would like to ask you the question that based on what you heard in that smart phone video you feel that you are in more of a position to comment on the deficiencies of this system even though so many of us, myself included were in that room and feel totally opposed to your comment. So Frank, do all of us who heard the room need to get our hearing checked or can you possibly or even remotely think that just perhaps, you were wrong in your assessment of the EA room from your You Tube video.
There is an illness in medicine called fibromyalgia that many doctors feel is a grab bag for a big nothing yet so many people comment on having the symptoms that it continues to be investigated and treated but no confirmation of a diagnosis is forthcoming as it is really difficult if not impossible to diagnose let alone treat. I have a similar feeling when I hear about your discovery ASA and suddenly 35 years of your research has opened all of these windows for you. It is almost a place where you can explain why the room doesn't matter or why only one channel is necessary as your mind can fill in and create all of the missing parts. It seems all too easy for you to use ASA rather than basic givens that we who listen to music accept. Now this doesn't mean that I am discounting ASA but I am discounting your abilities to use it as an epiphany for your last 35 years. As for David's system, I had the same epiphany but when all was said and done I am totally happy with my system. If you achieved it 35 years ago where is it now
Finally I would like to ask you the question that based on what you heard in that smart phone video you feel that you are in more of a position to comment on the deficiencies of this system even though so many of us, myself included were in that room and feel totally opposed to your comment. So Frank, do all of us who heard the room need to get our hearing checked or can you possibly or even remotely think that just perhaps, you were wrong in your assessment of the EA room from your You Tube video.
Bob, you just like being ornery!! Completely back to front - now, if people have a good listen they just might be able to work out why Bob and I are at opposite ends here ...
Steve, I have pointed out in many of the posts since my first one about this particular segment that I was reacting to the sound as caught in that snapshot in time - if everyone here thinks the sound in that video at that point is excellent then I'm the odd one out. I have absolutely zero issue with the components on show, there is every likelihood that the room performed admirably at all other points in time, going by the response elicited from other observers - and as already been mentioned, there will be a clip put up by AVshowreports at some time; my suggestion is to wait for that and see what it shows.
If people don't understand that a system can sound brilliant at one moment and quite mediocre a half hour later, and the other way around - for reasons which are a long way from obvious much of time - then they will be struggling to get to grips with getting the best out of it. This has happened to me over and over again, and a lot of my efforts have been to understand what's going on.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I see you've joined the club, Steve. I have given up on page 7 of this thread, see this post:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-illusion-quot&p=397901&viewfull=1#post397901
I have kept my mouth shut. I will still keep my mouth shut (to a certain extent). My Mom along with certain prominent people in my life have told me to keep my mouth shut unless I have something positive to say. I am having a very hard time here. There is a limit. I believe the limit has reached it's end.
We are back to where we were before. YMMV
Tom
We are back to where we were before. YMMV
Tom
I think you guys are (purposely or otherwise) missing Frank's point about comparability of realism from videos of systems. He is by no means saying that the sound is anywhere as good as if he were there but that the characteristic traits of the system make through the recording/playback process surprisingly well. I think believability that I hear through the recordings agrees quite well when I heard some of the exact same systems live...no it does not sound the same or as good but the main characteristics did come through surprisingly.
This is my take on Frank's point as well. It is surprising how quickly, and harshly, his comments have been criticized. For a long time, I also thought Frank's claims about the improvement of components, and the systems, on which he has worked/modified were a bit fanciful. Yet, he was so persistent with his claims, that people started to ask him specific questions about his work. Then, over time, as he explained some of his modifications and methods, I gained a better understanding of what he was claiming. Admittedly, I have not heard any of his results for myself, but I am more open minded than I had been. And I am starting to question how I prioritized elements of a system in terms of their contribution toward "believability."
Frank's suggestion of standing up and getting out of the sweet spot and walking toward the plane of the speakers and then moving to one side while observing the changes to the sound, opened my ears/mind to what he is getting at. Perhaps it is radical, but it is certainly a different approach to the conventional way I used to think about this stuff, and for that, I am grateful for his contributions to this forum.
At worst, it is just one of many different opinions being expressed. At best, it can allow us to look at things slightly differently. What is wrong with that? I read these pages to learn things.
Sure, I'd rather hear the systems in person than watch and listen to them in a Youtube video, but then, I'd rather hear live music instead of listening to a system. We do what we can in terms of accessing the sound. Each time we remove ourselves one step further from the live event, resolution, presence and believability suffer. And a Youtube video seems to convey a lot more information than two paper cups and a piece of string do.
See, this is where I really have an issue... this is a huge assumption on your part. I'm sorry but with the level of gear you're playing with it's just SO unlikely. As I've said a few times before, there's a really good chance, 99.9% imo, that most people here already have far higher performing systems than you've ever experienced. Of course I'm just guessing and could be wrong, but the fact is language is imprecise and there's no guarantee, or even liklihood, that experiences described online match up in real life. Wishful thinking, imo...
