What exactly do you need to tell your carpenter to build you the most amazing room?
- Thread starter caesar
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planning,planning,and more planning. After doing all the research you can do,have a set of plans drawn up and remember changes after the fact are expensive.
That's a tall order for a carpenter
No offense, but your question is like 'what do I have to tell that cute girl over there in order for her to come home with me?' Ask 10 people get 10 different conflicting answers. Ask a 'Pick Up Artist' (yes there are people who do that professionally and are damn good at it judging by their conversion rate) and maybe you'll be in business.
You need:
- a good size room with favorable dimensions (see the white paper I wrote for a start, there is more in Toole's book, even though he discounts room dimensions because he uses multiple subs)
- proper noise design and construction. Noise doesn't get in, noise doesn't get out.
- acoustic treatment designed in relation to the radiation pattern of the loudspeakers (different for cone/dome conventional forward firing, dipoles, constant directivity, etc)
- appropriate electrical design to supply proper low noise, low stray ground current + low impedances
- appropriate HVAC design to maintain air temps yet meet noise criterion
Build out the shell, then do an initial round of acoustical measurements to validate your design, then do the fit out, then finally do the calibration.
Could be one of several, really. I am looking for the room to accommodate any great full range speaker.
That's a tall order for a carpenter
No offense, but your question is like 'what do I have to tell that cute girl over there in order for her to come home with me?' Ask 10 people get 10 different conflicting answers. Ask a 'Pick Up Artist' (yes there are people who do that professionally and are damn good at it judging by their conversion rate) and maybe you'll be in business.
You need:
- a good size room with favorable dimensions (see the white paper I wrote for a start, there is more in Toole's book, even though he discounts room dimensions because he uses multiple subs)
- proper noise design and construction. Noise doesn't get in, noise doesn't get out.
- acoustic treatment designed in relation to the radiation pattern of the loudspeakers (different for cone/dome conventional forward firing, dipoles, constant directivity, etc)
- appropriate electrical design to supply proper low noise, low stray ground current + low impedances
- appropriate HVAC design to maintain air temps yet meet noise criterion
Build out the shell, then do an initial round of acoustical measurements to validate your design, then do the fit out, then finally do the calibration.
Thanks, Nyal. I ultimately need a project plan. Any chance you could "peel the onion" a bit, and provide some more detail on any of the items above? If this thread works, it could be a great resource for all audiophiles in the world and help the WBF further distinguish itself.
Get a highly competent high end audio room designer (as long as it is not Rives Audio)
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Here's what I went through. Even though I have a mastering room, it's just like a high-end listening room.
1. Hire someone that will draw the plans.
2. Hire an acoustician. A room designer and an acoustician are not the same. (Get a second opinion)
3. If you want any type of sound resistance, the price automatically triples. I told my contractor to pretend they are building an aquarium or submarine. It needs to hold water. If water can escape (or come in) so can sound. My contractors took the plans and studied up on decoupling techniques before they even started.
4. Take your time. It takes twice as long and cost twice as much to fix something than to build it right to begin with.
5. Symmetry... symmetry... symmetry...
6. Overbuild. Put in more receptacles and ethernet lines than you need. Believe me... you'll run out.
7. Symmetry...
8. Build the acoustics into the room... not something hanging on the wall. Acoustics can be invisible.
9. Did I say Symmetry??
For a full-rang speaker... ie: MM3, ISIS, MAXX3 etc.... you'll need at least 3000 cu/ft
1. Hire someone that will draw the plans.
2. Hire an acoustician. A room designer and an acoustician are not the same. (Get a second opinion)
3. If you want any type of sound resistance, the price automatically triples. I told my contractor to pretend they are building an aquarium or submarine. It needs to hold water. If water can escape (or come in) so can sound. My contractors took the plans and studied up on decoupling techniques before they even started.
4. Take your time. It takes twice as long and cost twice as much to fix something than to build it right to begin with.
5. Symmetry... symmetry... symmetry...
6. Overbuild. Put in more receptacles and ethernet lines than you need. Believe me... you'll run out.
7. Symmetry...
8. Build the acoustics into the room... not something hanging on the wall. Acoustics can be invisible.
9. Did I say Symmetry??
For a full-rang speaker... ie: MM3, ISIS, MAXX3 etc.... you'll need at least 3000 cu/ft
Well first things first I would take a look at the white paper I published if you haven't already.
You should make a decision on:
- the rough size of the space, which will depend on how much floor area you have available and what rooms you have or if a new build what the plot of land or extension size will be
- will it be a dedicated or multi-purpose
- will it be for 2 channel, multi-channel, HT or all three
- how many good seats do you want / care about
- what interior aesthetic are you going for from don't care, its all about performance to hide all those acoustic panels I want it to look like a normal room
- what kind of speakers are you thinking of
- what budget do you have
- is noise isolation in or out of the space a requirement
- who do you have in mind to do construction
Then I would go and talk to a bunch of acoustic designers, tell them what you want to do and get their insights and projected costs. After all, that bit is free. Depending on your proposed project budget and ambition level some will fit better than others.
If you are talking about an 'amazing room' I think you will need help
??
I've posted my thoughts on Richard Rives elsewhere on this forum. In fact, you commented on it.
(see http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-acoustician/page2&highlight=room+acoustician)
If you do a Level 3 Project and Richard's Business Partner is involved (Chris Huston) then I would actively consider his firm. If not, I would strongly urge going elsewhere.
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
I would choose prime dimensions to minimize modes, suspended (floating) walls and ceilings with appropriate construction and sealing techniques (I drew pictures and provided design guides from Kinetics for the IsoClips I used), and a Mini-Split or similar HVAC unit to isolate from the house HVAC. For starters... For my media room, in-wall was not a good option so I have panels hanging from the walls (and ceiling).
Remember isolation and acoustic treatments are not the same thing.
Remember isolation and acoustic treatments are not the same thing.
CRC! I have the exact same disease. However I have decided to blame the problem not on bad memory but that at my age, all of the memory storage is occupied so when I learn something new, I need to forget something I used to know.
Hence the term: "selective negligence"
CRC! I have the exact same disease. However I have decided to blame the problem not on bad memory but that at my age, all of the memory storage is occupied so when I learn something new, I need to forget something I used to know.
Hence the term: "selective negligence"
That already happens to me and I am 32
IMO nobody can do a good job on designing a room WITHOUT taking acoustic measurements at some part of the process. For a new room best practice for me would be to model the acoustics, then build, then measure after construction before the acoustic treatment goes in, and then measure again after it goes in. For an existing room where the construction of the walls / floor / ceiling is going to remain unchanged or partially unchanged then I would take a set of measurements before design starts in earnest. Prediction of low frequencies from models is unreliable unless you are using one of the new BEM / CFD tools, and very few people are.
For best results you will want measurements of the speaker you are going to put in there since what treatment to apply at the major reflection points really depends on the radiation pattern and off axis performance of the speaker in question.
Rives Level I doesn't include measurements. Level II and III do, at least from their website.
Richard sent me his measurement system. I did the measurements and sent them to him and his response was the same: "it's not the room" when it was obvious to anyone who heard the room (including some of his competitors) that it was in fact, the room. Since every other variable had been dealt with, the room was the only possibility.
Either (a) his measurement system is inadequate or (b) he doesn't know how to use it or (c) he didn't want to be bothered or (d) whatever the issue is in my room traditional measurements will not show it. (As an aside, Dennis Erskine and his partner came and measured my room and while it was clear the problem was the room, their measurements apparently did not tell them what the problem was)
Richard was in Atlanta twice during this time period (CEDIA shows) and refused to come by and listen!!
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