What High-Efficiency Speaker (97 and Higher) and Amp Combo you Heard that can Reproduce a Drum Solo Most Realistically?

[caesar]

Please share your experiences about the dynamics

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i kinda like my passive main tower 97db Evolution Acoustics MM7's with dart 468's (with a couple added integrated active bass towers). the 8 (4 per side) 11" ceramic matrix woofers (30hz-250hz) per side of the main passive towers can really light it up in the mid bass where those drums really get their action. no cross-over in that frequency range, minimal driver excursion considering all that driver surface.

in essence there is unlimited dynamics on hand technically far beyond potential musical demands.

and the active isolation under the signal path (amps, preamp, and phono) maintains the precision and speed of any dynamic music. no smearing as the music really lifts off.

one recent drum solo that i really enjoyed was Art Blakey on '"Well You Needn't", off "Monk's Music", AP 45rpm reissue. played on the Saskia model two, Durand Tosca tone arm, Etsuro Gold cartridge, CS Port phono. besides otherworldly dynamics, you have tone, nuance and timbre in every little part. vivid, real, great flow and sense of musical ensemble......not something apart from the rest of the cut. the dynamics serve the music and add to the realism. Blakey's drum kit is in my room!

 

[gian60]

With my Italian speaker Montagna,around 97 dB with CH M1 mono,drum are incredible
With Sheffield track drum I saw on display of M1 1203 peak watt and with Hot Styx,M&K recording, around 700 peak watt
Really incredible

 

[Duke LeJeune]

The most dynamic rendition of drums (or anything else) I have heard was by a pair of Classic Audio Hartsfields. I have not experienced their equal when it comes to dynamics.

Also doing extremely well in that respect were the eXemplars by John Tucker, the Classic Audio T1.5 and T3, Earl Geddes' Summas augmented by multiple subs, and a big Pipe Dreams system driven by Gamut's 400-pound S300 amplifiers. I suspect the Edgarhorn Titan system would have also done well but don't recall hearing a drum kit over them; only classical. The eXemplars could have used subwoofer helpage, but their dynamics were excellent. The Classic Audio Hartsfields, T1.5s, and T3s were driven by Atma-Sphere amps, and I don't remember what was driving the eXemplars. I mention the amps because I think they are part of the equation; when I heard Pipe Dreams driven by other amps, the dynamics didn't stand out to me.

The Hartsfields and eXemplars have horn-loaded 15's (with the magnificent Hartsfield's horn being considerably longer). The T1.5 uses one 15 and one 18, and the T3 uses two 15's. Earl's system uses a single 15 in each main, but augmented by 12-inch "helper subs" which reach well up into the midbass region, with multiple "normal" subs covering the more traditional subwoofer region. The Pipe Dreams had floor-to-ceiling 3" or 4" midbass cones, and then two subwoofers, each with two 18" cones (one firing up and the other firing down).

My most stunning "I DID NOT expect this!!" dynamic experience was by the skinny little multi-midwoofer transmission line Evolution Acoustics speakers shown at T.H.E. Show in 2019. I haven't heard Mike Lavigne's system but if we extrapolate from that little speaker up to his massive system, I believe every word he says.

Edit: Oops, I think the Pipedreams were only 94 dB ballpark, and would guess that the little Evolution Acoustics were likewise not "high efficiency", so these fall short of the 97 dB target.

 

[morricab]

The most dynamic rendition of drums (or anything else) I have heard was by a pair of Classic Audio Hartsfields. I have not experienced their equal when it comes to dynamics.

Also doing extremely well in that respect were the eXemplars by John Tucker, the Classic Audio T1.5 and T3, Earl Geddes' Summas augmented by multiple subs, and a big Pipe Dreams system driven by Gamut's 400-pound S300 amplifiers. I suspect the Edgarhorn Titan system would have also done well but don't recall hearing a drum kit over them; only classical. The eXemplars could have used subwoofer helpage, but their dynamics were excellent. The Classic Audio Hartsfields, T1.5s, and T3s were driven by Atma-Sphere amps, and I don't remember what was driving the eXemplars. I mention the amps because I think they are part of the equation; when I heard Pipe Dreams driven by other amps, the dynamics didn't stand out to me.

The Hartsfields and eXemplars have horn-loaded 15's (with the magnificent Hartsfield's horn being considerably longer). The T1.5 uses one 15 and one 18, and the T3 uses two 15's. Earl's system uses a single 15 in each main, but augmented by 12-inch "helper subs" which reach well up into the midbass region, with multiple "normal" subs covering the more traditional subwoofer region. The Pipe Dreams had floor-to-ceiling 3" or 4" midbass cones, and then two subwoofers, each with two 18" cones (one firing up and the other firing down).

My most stunning "I DID NOT expect this!!" dynamic experience was by the skinny little multi-midwoofer transmission line Evolution Acoustics speakers shown at T.H.E. Show in 2019. I haven't heard Mike Lavigne's system but if we extrapolate from that little speaker up to his massive system, I believe every word he says.

Edit: Oops, I think the Pipedreams were only 94 dB ballpark, and would guess that the little Evolution Acoustics were likewise not "high efficiency", so these fall short of the 97 dB target.

Yeah, the Hartsfields are pretty explosive when the recording calls for it...I would love to have either a reproduction or an original set (with 075 tweeters added). This is one of the most realistic sounding speakers I have heard in many ways...amazing. Of course the original WE cinema speakers have even bigger dynamics (but worse tonal colorations) but they were never intended for home use (medium to large theaters). I have heard Avantgarde Trios with Bass horns deliver phenomenal dynamics and Aries Cerat Symphonia with Erebus horn subs as well.

Some very large panel speakers do really good dynamics as well as their radiating surface is well beyond what is practical with cone woofers (horns are another story)...they also don't suffer from thermal compression so up to the point where they get mechanically constrained (excursion limits) they will keep scaling with power in a more accurate way. I had huge electrostats as both mid/high (Acoustat Spectra 2200) and woofers (Acoustat Spectra 4400) crossed with an Accuphase F25. This could deliver awesome dynamics, both macro and micro. It was significantly better on micro dynamics than the Infinity IRS Betas I once had and on par with them on macro dyanmics. The bass from those huge panels (2.4 meters high, 55 cm wide) was actually better, more impactful and alive sounding, than the IRS Betas 4 x 12 servo woofer towers.

That said, for macro dynamics the IRS Betas were pretty good but they lacked the ability to make it sound "real". Not sure if that was dynamic shifts or not but I suspect it is related. The electrostats were more responsive to small inputs despite a lowish rated sensitivity. Big Apogees like the Grand + subs also does dynamics quite well but something like a Hartsfield again has a more realistic portrayl of instrument dynamics...perhaps for massed instruments the Grands are better but for smaller ensembles a "simple" two-way horn seems more realistic.

 

[morricab]

Please share your experiences about the dynamics

I have two horn systems at home for the moment: Odeon La Bohemes with my Aries Cerat gear and my DIY active horn system with a mishmash of tube gear.

The Odeon system is around 97db and has very realistic dynamics in a moderate size room...expand this to a large room and it loses a bit of impact but still sounds very alive. Again, this is for moderate scale music as well...it will not do a full orchestra at live volumes and deliver realisitic dynamics.

My upstairs system is 99db and a similar concept to the Odeons. It can give quite realistic dynamics too but with similar constraints as above. This is fine with me because I don't have space for a large horn or panel system anymore (family concerns...before I had a family I was a bit more ambitious on speaker scale) and to be honest, even really large speakers don't realistically capture what one hears at a live concert at that scale.

I am more interested in capturing mid-scale live dynamics like a live Jazz concert without or with amplification, small to mid-sized classical ensembles (trios, quartets, quintets, with piano etc. ) and full orcehstra at well below live levels. The problem of recording becomes far worse with large orchestral works because they almost always have to start applying limiting and compression just to get it on the recording...with smaller music you can leave the throtle on recording more wide open.

The Dynamikks speakers I sell are also interesting as they kind of intersect the cone/dome world and the horn world. They are typically in the mid-90s (our Athos 10 is "only" around 92db in full passvie form..97db semi-active) but feel closer to horn but with a faimiliarity to those used to the cone/dome world. In that sense they feel a lot like the new Goebel Divin series, which also is using mid-90s pro drivers. The advantage of the high sensitivity (good micro dynamics) with extremely high power handling (minimizing thermal compression) allows for advnatages in the micro/macro dynamics vs. speakers with non-pro and moderate sensitivity drivers. The Athos 10 has really superb impact and growl while sounding relaxed even at elevated levels. Again, I am not talking a 90 square meter room...more like a 30 square meter room.

The one speaker I have yet to hear from Dynamikks is their Ultra. I i is a huge horn, in the style of Danley where multiple drivers feed the same horn. The bass is active with at least 4 x 15 woofers per side (up to 8 I think). Cost is huge but I am sure the dynamics are on the top level.

 

[stehno]

Please share your experiences about the dynamics

IME, the list of requirements toward generating most realistic dynamics, not just drums but the entire playback presentation, do not include high efficiency speakers and amp combo's. To the contrary, I attest the bulk of most realistic or shall I say more natural and superior dynamics are far better remedied elsewhere in the playback vineyard. Hence, I consider the need for high efficiency speakers and amp combos for such dynamics to be little more than popular folklore.

Likewise, popular folklore also dictates that passive pre-amps strip away dynamics. But my experiences tell me the most realistic aka most natural dynamics occur without an active gain stage. For me.

I love dynamics as much as the next guy and take great pride in possessing one of the most realistic dynamic systems I've encountered. But unlike conventional wisdom I'm convinced superior dynamics, as well as perhaps every other coveted sonic characteristic, are embedded within the recording, not within the playback equipment. The implicaton being that types and combinations of playback equiprment has less to do with the dynamics and overall presentation than other parts of the playback vineyard. One caveat is that there's no substitution for superior speaker placement and superior subwoofer configurations as this is a primary requirement to sufficiently reproduce superior low-end dynamics. But still it's not the only requirement. Nor does it do anything for dynamcis for the remainder of the frequency spectrum.

Anyway, to better demonstrate I've attached here a reasonably nice drum solo that gradually builds in dynamics. I was also going to attach a very dynamic pop 80's piece with much percussion, but in some ways even as exhilerating the most aggressive of those even at 105db don't quite compare to a woderfully dynamic orchestral piece in a concert hall.

 

[rugyboogie]

Having heard Mike's speakers many times at the barn they spectacular every time.

These are my JBL's, they bring a smile when listening to them.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Why do you lay the limit on 97 db .
For a good cone design its hard to achieve 97 db unless you use a lot of ls units as in for example mike lavignes main tower .
Mine will make you turn the volume down on (deep purple made in japan drumsolo) way be fore the ls reach their max with 20 watts solid state .
Impedance minimum of 5 ohms counts

 

[rob]

This one does a pretty good job.

 

[bonzo75]

 

[morricab]

Yours?? Oh wait...never mind

 

[bonzo75]

Yours?? Oh wait...never mind

I have the drivers. Glad you moved away from your incorrectly driven ones, never made that mistake. You mentioned any you own? Apart from the one you sell?

 

[morricab]

I have the drivers. Glad you moved away from your incorrectly driven ones, never made that mistake. You mentioned any you own? Apart from the one you sell?

Of course, my Odeons are well documented on this forum and 97db and fully horn loaded

 

[morricab]

I have the drivers. Glad you moved away from your incorrectly driven ones, never made that mistake. You mentioned any you own? Apart from the one you sell?

Also my Supravox Alizees, which are now part of DIY.

 

[bonzo75]

Of course, my Odeons are well documented on this forum and 97db and fully horn loaded

Odeon are dynamic? Oh well, we have different level benchmarks

 

[kevinkwann]

Odeon are dynamic? Oh well, we have different level benchmarks

No question about that. Morricab actually knows what he's doing.

 

[bonzo75]

No question about that. Morricab actually knows what he's doing.

You heard Odeon, or just fomenting?

 

[bonzo75]

No question about that. Morricab actually knows what he's doing.

You are the person who was referred to as my dedicated heckler. Missed you

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...ald-mills-the-oma-omg-tour.25042/#post-500331

 

[cjfrbw]

.

I like the way this Firebird one makes the camera jiggle during the loud bass parts.