What improvements have we seen in high end audio in the last 25 years?

[Johnny Vinyl]

Higher Prices at ever increasing rates

200gm vinyl an improvement - absolutely NOT.
Give me nice flat quiet 120gm vinyl from any day. The cutting lathe, nor any stylus cares about the thickness of the vinylvinyl, only the quality of the grooves.

+1.

I've been on a bit of a kick going through my collection and finding some 70's and 80's stuff on standard weight vinyl that sounds absolutely tremendous. I'm a huge AMERICA fan and have all of their LP's, plus some of the 180g reissues. I prefer the domestic original releases, and that's just one small example.

 

[MylesBAstor]

The cutting lathe, nor any stylus cares about the thickness of the viny, only the quality of the grooves.

Sorry but really can't agree here Shane. There are good reasons for adding thickness. And you don't even need to compare Classic Records. Go back to the '70s when EMI and Decca classical divisions released reviewer copies (normal thickness even) on single sided LP while the commercial was the double sided LP. I was lucky to find a few of them over the years in my travels through London. The single sided are just a bit better. Not earth shattering but one can hear it.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Sorry but really can't agree here Shane. There are good reasons for adding thickness. And you don't even need to compare Classic Records. Go back to the '70s when EMI and Decca classical divisions released reviewer copies (normal thickness even) on single sided LP while the commercial was the double sided LP. I was lucky to find a few of them over the years in my travels through London. The single sided are just a bit better. Not earth shattering but one can hear it.

Don't you think you're you're trying to prove your point with an exception rather than what's commercially available? It may very well be true and surely I bow to your knowledge on all things vinyl, but in general a well-mastered, well-pressed standard weight piece of vinyl holds it own.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Don't you think you're you're trying to prove your point with an exception rather than what's commercially available? It may very well be true and surely I bow to your knowledge on all things vinyl, but in general a well-mastered, well-pressed standard weight piece of vinyl holds it own.

The question was whether 200 g was an improvement. I'll bet that 1/2 of all releases today are 180 gm. For those who want the best, 200 gm is the way to go.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

The question was whether 200 g was an improvement. I'll bet that 1/2 of all releases today are 180 gm. For those who want the best, 200 gm is the way to go.

Sorry! I thought the distinction was between standard vs heavyweight, not 180 vs 200.

 

[dallasjustice]

DSP. Some people call it room correction.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Sorry! I thought the distinction was between standard vs heavyweight, not 180 vs 200.

Both 180 and 200 gm are sonic and physical improvements over floppy discs and dynawarp.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Both 180 and 200 gm are sonic and physical improvements over floppy discs and dynawarp.

That's what outer rings are for.

 

[marty]

The year was 1977. Linda Ronstadt just released her classic album "Simple Dreams". I was living in LA and went out to buy the LP immediately. I scoured 20 stores in search of a flat LP. I don't mean pancake flat. I mean reasonably flat. I bought 20 copies from record stores throughout Lala land from Santa Monica to Pasadena to Long Beach. Just gimme one damn flat LP, is that too hard to ask for? Nada, no way, no how. I returned 20 copies. Got so good at buying warped records that after a while I didn't bother leaving the store. Opened them right then and there for immediate return. Wish I had those damn outer rings then. I guess in that regard, there have been improvements over the past 25 years. Very few LPs are horribly warped these days. And just in time for a medium that is headed toward antiquity! (Sorry Myles )

 

[PeterA]

Very few LPs are horribly warped these days. And just in time for a medium that is headed toward antiquity! (Sorry Myles )

Judging from all of the photographs of turntables at the Munich and Newport shows, LPs will be around for a while longer.

 

[MylesBAstor]

That's what outer rings are for.

Ever put a ring on a Linn? And there are many tables out there that eschew clamps eg. TW-Acoustics, Dobbins, Linn and suspended tables.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Judging from all of the photographs of turntables at the Munich and Newport shows, LPs will be around for a while longer.

+1

It really hit me this weekend after having a few people over this weekend to hear the Magico S5s and playing LPs back on the VPI Classic Direct/3D arm/Transfiguration Proteus and 15 ips tape on my modded Technics 1500 where the difference between analog and digital lay. With analog, there is no ceiling; the better your system gets, the better the best recordings become. For instance, you hear more and more details buried in the mix. You hear more of people talking. You hear more of the sense of walls. You hear more of the echo or reverb. You see more of the singer. With digital, there is a hard ceiling; once you get to a certain point, that's it. Especially with 16/44. There's only so much to be resolved.

I'd say that with the sales of LPs continuing to rise, the book hasn't been closed by a long shot on records.

 

[PeterA]

+1

It really hit me this weekend after having a few people over this weekend to hear the Magico S5s and playing LPs back on the VPI Classic Direct/3D arm/Transfiguration Proteus and 15 ips tape on my modded Technics 1500 where the difference between analog and digital lay. With analog, there is no ceiling; the better your system gets, the better the best recordings become. For instance, you hear more and more details buried in the mix. You hear more of people talking. You hear more of the sense of walls. You hear more of the echo or reverb. You see more of the singer. With digital, there is a hard ceiling; once you get to a certain point, that's it. Especially with 16/44. There's only so much to be resolved.

I'd say that with the sales of LPs continuing to rise, the book hasn't been closed by a long shot on records.

I have experienced/noticed exactly the same thing, Myles. I just have not articulated it quite as clearly. Some have described analog as having more pleasing colorations than digital, but I don't think that is really it. Or that there is more too it than that and you have identified a big part of it.

 

[MadFloyd]

+1

It really hit me this weekend after having a few people over this weekend to hear the Magico S5s and playing LPs back on the VPI Classic Direct/3D arm/Transfiguration Proteus and 15 ips tape on my modded Technics 1500 where the difference between analog and digital lay. With analog, there is no ceiling; the better your system gets, the better the best recordings become. For instance, you hear more and more details buried in the mix. You hear more of people talking. You hear more of the sense of walls. You hear more of the echo or reverb. You see more of the singer. With digital, there is a hard ceiling; once you get to a certain point, that's it. Especially with 16/44. There's only so much to be resolved.

I'd say that with the sales of LPs continuing to rise, the book hasn't been closed by a long shot on records.

To me it's the opposite. Digital has come so far and now sounds more precise and detailed than LP. I think that's because of all the inherent flaws in LPs. I still love LPs despite this though. Interesting topic on the subject here by Jim Smith.

Oops: just realized Myles was also talking about R2R and when it comes to that I don't disagree. Tape is king!

 

[PeterA]

To me it's the opposite. Digital has come so far and now sounds more precise and detailed than LP. I think that's because of all the inherent flaws in LPs. I still love LPs despite this though. Interesting topic on the subject here by Jim Smith.

Oops: just realized Myles was also talking about R2R and when it comes to that I don't disagree. Tape is king!

I agree that digital has come a long way in recent years and it continues to improve. BUT, so does analog. They are different, but the best of each sounds more and more like the real thing. Similar to what I think is happening with good solid state and tube amplification, the technologies continue to improve, sound more real and thus are converging, or sounding more and more alike.

Quite a few people describe the improvement of digital in terms of sounding more and more like analog. Madfloyd, this is in fact similar to how you described your most recent DAC to me. You said something like, "(The new DAC) is warmer, less sterile/clinical/analytical, and it sounds more like analog." I heard it and agree.

Both mediums are getting very good.

 

[Dre_J]

To me it's the opposite. Digital has come so far and now sounds more precise and detailed than LP. I think that's because of all the inherent flaws in LPs. I still love LPs despite this though. Interesting topic on the subject here by Jim Smith.

There is no delusion and I will reserve commenting on this simply because he's entitled to his opinion and observations. I like and enjoy all formats but vinyl is my personal choice when I want to be more attached to the music. Maybe it's the interaction with the format, maybe not. But I'm not missing anything that a comparable digital setup provides, In most cases it's the opposite. This isn't exclusive to my system.

I will grant that it is a heck of a lot easier to inject a digital source into a system with much less work...

Dre

 

[PeterA]

There is no dilution and I will reserve commenting on this simply because he's (Jim Smith's) entitled to his opinion and observations. I like and enjoy all formats but vinyl is my personal choice when I want to be more attached to the music. Maybe it's the interaction with the format, maybe not. But I'm not missing anything that a comparable digital setup provides, In most cases it's the opposite. This isn't exclusive to my system.

I will grant that it is a heck of a lot easier to inject a digital source into a system with much less work...

Dre

This has been my experience and preference also.

 

[MylesBAstor]

To me it's the opposite. Digital has come so far and now sounds more precise and detailed than LP. I think that's because of all the inherent flaws in LPs. I still love LPs despite this though. Interesting topic on the subject here by Jim Smith.

Oops: just realized Myles was also talking about R2R and when it comes to that I don't disagree. Tape is king!

I certainly don't agree with all Jim's statements. And it also ignores many other factors. One might label it as parochial.

What digital will give you is consistency from day-to-day and CD-to-CD or file-to-file. You don't have to worry about VTA, etc. But again, we're talking all things being equal at their very best.

 

[marty]

Judging from all of the photographs of turntables at the Munich and Newport shows, LPs will be around for a while longer.

Peter, of course LPs will be around a while longer. But define "a while". It's true that vinyl sales have increased 33% last year, while CD sales declined 14%, but look at the denominator! At 6m units in sales, LPs were 2% of all music sales in 2013. The big winner was streaming, up 32%, and as resolution increases and prices come down, this does not portend a particularly strong future for vinyl sales. As the Woodstock generation fades, and the Millenials and X gen and whatever the heck they call the latest generation rises, I'm afraid these demographics do not favor new LP sales (most of current sales are re-issues anyway). Don't get me wrong. I have a nice vinyl rig and understand the merits of the format quite well, but I'm afraid I can't be as enthusiastic about its long term future as many others.

 

[dallasjustice]

I wonder what Harry Dent would say about the demographics in hi end? Dyers vs Buyers?

Peter, of course LPs will be around a while longer. But define "a while". It's true that vinyl sales have increased 33% last year, while CD sales declined 14%, but look at the denominator! At 6m in sales, LPs were 2% of all music sales in 2013. The big winner was streaming, up 32%, and as resolution increases and prices come down, this does not portend a particularly strong future for vinyl sales. As the Woodstock generation fades, and the Millenials and X gen and whatever the heck they call the latest generation rises, I'm afraid these demographics do not favor new LP sales (most of current sales are re-issues anyway). Don't get me wrong. I have a nice vinyl rig and understand the merits of the format quite well, but I'm afraid I can't be as enthusiastic about its long term future as many others.

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