What improvements have we seen in high end audio in the last 25 years?

Peter, of course LPs will be around a while longer. But define "a while". It's true that vinyl sales have increased 33% last year, while CD sales declined 14%, but look at the denominator! At 6m units in sales, LPs were 2% of all music sales in 2013. The big winner was streaming, up 32%, and as resolution increases and prices come down, this does not portend a particularly strong future for vinyl sales. As the Woodstock generation fades, and the Millenials and X gen and whatever the heck they call the latest generation rises, I'm afraid these demographics do not favor new LP sales (most of current sales are re-issues anyway). Don't get me wrong. I have a nice vinyl rig and understand the merits of the format quite well, but I'm afraid I can't be as enthusiastic about its long term future as many others.

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The thing is with the music in free fall, 10% more in profit is huge to their bottom line. And we've had that argument and a previous piece posted (I think it was from the NY Times) a couple of weeks ago reinforced the statement that this graph doesn't accurately represent total LP sales eg. independent record stores and places online like Acoustic Sounds, Elusive Disc, Music Direct, etc. where LPs sales are huge are not included.

"But manufacturers, specialist retailers and critics argue that SoundScan’s figures represent only a fraction of actual sales, perhaps as little, Mr. Kassem and Mr. Astor said, as 10 to 15 percent. They say that about 25 million vinyl discs were pressed in the United States last year, and many more in Europe and Asia, including some destined for the American market."

From: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/10/arts/music/vinyl-records-are-making-a-comeback.html?_r=0
 
Marty, I don't think I'll make any predictions. But predictions were made back in the mid 1980s about the death of analog. How accurate were they? I think your chart is well known. The point I was trying to make is that designers are still working on improving analog reproduction. And record pressing companies are expanding. I don't think there is any danger of analog disappearing any time soon.

A quick story: My 14 year old daughter had a friend over last night. She is a very good cellist. I asked her to listen to Bach's Cello Suite #2 on my analog system. She is in the process of trying to memorize the second Suite for an upcoming recital and I wanted to hear her opinion of how it sounded: volume, tone, dynamics, presence - basically if she thought it sounded natural and somewhat like a real cello being played in a real room.

She listened carefully with her eyes shut for 15 minutes. My daughter rolled her eyes and left the room. Afterwards, the cellist said that it sounded very real and that the dynamics and tone were quite life like. She told me she followed every note and imagined the fingers of her left hand playing the music. She finished by telling me that her family had a few different stereos at home and that she wished she had a system like mine by which to study music, because it sounded so good. I presumed her family had a bunch of digital. She said that her older teenage brother actually has a turntable and listens to LPs. There is some hope.
 
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Here is my prediction, LPs will still be available for sale long after CDs are no longer available for sale.
 
There's no question that there's a lot of high end audio gear produced over the previous 25 hears that is still top quality. Whether the future is LP, digital or tape nobody really knows. What is known is that the peak of baby boomer retirements will be in play over the next 10 years. It is also well understood that retirement aged folks don't spend nearly as much money as they did before retirement. And when they die or move to their smaller retirement homes in Florida, they will need to liquidate a lot of very high quality gear.

Unfortunately, Audiogon will do very well over the next 10 years.
 
Here is my prediction, LPs will still be available for sale long after CDs are no longer available for sale.

Yes, CDs will be replaced by high-res downloads. Vinyl will be around, but primarily for the nostalgia crowd. The current vinyl 'boom' will soon peak, and then start collapsing. Once the current group of people getting into vinyl accidentally ruin a few records, tire of getting up to change sides, tire of cleaning, tire of tone arm and cartridge adjustments, tire of surface noise, pops, and clicks, and experience the sound, ease, and convenience of a good digital system they will trash their vinyl system so fast the vendors will wonder what happened.
 
I think it's safe to say that the future will be some type of digital format. Not that there won't be lots of analog still around because the demand is still there. CD as a medium is on life support. They practically give away CDs on Amazon and you can hardly find much of a selection in the places that still sell CDs.
 
Sorry but really can't agree here Shane. There are good reasons for adding thickness. And you don't even need to compare Classic Records. Go back to the '70s when EMI and Decca classical divisions released reviewer copies (normal thickness even) on single sided LP while the commercial was the double sided LP. I was lucky to find a few of them over the years in my travels through London. The single sided are just a bit better. Not earth shattering but one can hear it.

Myles, I can't really agree with you disagreeing with me ;)

Buying new release vinyl (not expensive low volume audiophile reissues ) the overall quality of 180/200gb pressings are so much worse than in the 60's, 70's and 80's. These days so many 180/200gm vinyl are dished as the pressing plant's don't allow the required longer time frames for the thicker vinyl to cool. the normal 120gm vinyl is no where near afflicted with the same issues.

Almost all my old thin vinyl has no pressing faults, quiet and flat. the sound coming off these lp's are dependant on the mastering etc of the time like it is today.

I believe for smaller audiophile vinyl re-issues remastered from the analog tapes are outstanding these days. However to think they will sound better on 200gm vinyl vs 120gm vinyl is incorrect - they will sound the same, as the stylus cares less about how thick the vinyl is.
 
Yes, CDs will be replaced by high-res downloads. Vinyl will be around, but primarily for the nostalgia crowd. The current vinyl 'boom' will soon peak, and then start collapsing. Once the current group of people getting into vinyl accidentally ruin a few records, tire of getting up to change sides, tire of cleaning, tire of tone arm and cartridge adjustments, tire of surface noise, pops, and clicks, and experience the sound, ease, and convenience of a good digital system they will trash their vinyl system so fast the vendors will wonder what happened.

You're so wet you looked like you just walked in from a CAT 5 hurricane. How in the world do you possibly think you know that the current vinyl 'boom' will soon peak and then start collapsing? Digital does have "ease" and "convenience" going for it, but that's about it. I was going to post something earlier but I cancelled it before I hit 'post' because I didn't want to start another analog vs. digital food fight. DSD is still the best digital I have heard and that's because out of all the different digital formats, it sounds the most like analog. However, if I play an LP or a tape of a DSD file that I have, there is still a significant difference in sound quality.

People who 'get' what great analog does will not be trashing their vinyl systems for digital. I for one prefer to have both in my system because I want to keep abreast of where digital stands in the food chain. It is also helpful to have both if you want to make meaningful comparisons that are based on ancient memories. If you haven't had a good table/arm/cartridge/phono section in your system for the last 15-20 years, what do you really know about how digital and analog compare? Ditto if your only experience with digital was a first generation CD player and you base all of your comments on how digital sounds compared to analog based on an antique Phillips or Magnavox CD player.

I think HP was the first to say that if you want to enjoy CDs, quit listening to analog. That way you won't know what you are missing.
 
Yes, CDs will be replaced by high-res downloads. Vinyl will be around, but primarily for the nostalgia crowd. The current vinyl 'boom' will soon peak, and then start collapsing. Once the current group of people getting into vinyl accidentally ruin a few records, tire of getting up to change sides, tire of cleaning, tire of tone arm and cartridge adjustments, tire of surface noise, pops, and clicks, and experience the sound, ease, and convenience of a good digital system they will trash their vinyl system so fast the vendors will wonder what happened.

+1
 
Myles, I can't really agree with you disagreeing with me ;)

Buying new release vinyl (not expensive low volume audiophile reissues ) the overall quality of 180/200gb pressings are so much worse than in the 60's, 70's and 80's. These days so many 180/200gm vinyl are dished as the pressing plant's don't allow the required longer time frames for the thicker vinyl to cool. the normal 120gm vinyl is no where near afflicted with the same issues.

Almost all my old thin vinyl has no pressing faults, quiet and flat. the sound coming off these lp's are dependant on the mastering etc of the time like it is today.

I believe for smaller audiophile vinyl re-issues remastered from the analog tapes are outstanding these days. However to think they will sound better on 200gm vinyl vs 120gm vinyl is incorrect - they will sound the same, as the stylus cares less about how thick the vinyl is.

Are you disregarding the issue of islands between the grooves and things like that? Or that one side of the LP affects the other? No the stylus doesn't care but quality of the groove is important esp. with antiphase and other things.
 

Seems like they said that back in the '80s too. In fact, every decade. Like the digital manufacturer who said to Harry Weisfeld at the 1985 CES: "What are you going to be doing in five years?" Guess who's out of business? :) I just don't get how people can say analog is dying when turntable manufacturers can't keep up with orders and an under $1000 Nomad table sounds better than any digital player under $1000 nowadays.

But you do agree with MEP's terms digital couch potato.
 
Digital is here to stay,vinyl too and tape for a few. For me vinyl has always been a pain,digital is not bad,so I had the tape bug.:D
 
No good-sounding, high resolution format (mass-production or not) has ever died, has it? So I can't see how vinyl, R2R and digital will in the next 20 years. On with exciting medical news...
 
No good-sounding, high resolution format (mass-production or not) has ever died, has it? So I can't see how vinyl, R2R and digital will in the next 20 years. On with exciting medical news...

Well DVD-Audio died, SACD is as good as dead in many places, Elcassette never even made it to living enough to die, and DAT made a splash pro-side but died an agonising death in domestic. It's dead and buried now.

R2R is essentially a zombie format, reanimated using mostly old tapes and even older machines brought back to life by the care and attention of dedicated souls, but you'll not find much in the way of new stock tape heads kicking round now. The amount of NOS should be enough to keep the small army of R2R enthusiasts going, however.

LP all but went the same way as R2R, were it not for the hipsters. Whether its regrowth will survive the great beard cull of 2015 remains to be seen.
 
Hmm, DVD-Audio and Elcaset never took off the ground to begin with. Not sure what's going on with SACD, but it doesn't seem dead to me or dead-er than R2R.
 
Arguably, many improvements seen in the last 25 years are down to audio now being unconstrained by price. We'd never have products like the Alexandria XLF, the SME Model 30/12, or the VTL Siegfried were it not for that ultra-high-end market, and we'd never see products trickling down from these devices as a result.

However, I'd say over the last 25 years, IMO the most significant improvements seen are as follows, and in no particular order:

1. The recognition that we now swim in an ocean of Wi-Fi, and the rise of the products that can counter that
2. David Berning's ZOTL design
3. Gordon Rankin's Asynchronous USB
4. Lyngdorf's Millennium
5. Devialet's Class ADH
6. DSP room correction
7. Ethernet UPnP streaming
8. Changes in materials science in loudspeakers
9. BMR drive units
10. 3D printing (both for modelling, and increasingly for fabrication of products)

Most of the rest is development of existing technologies. Not that is a bad thing and there are some excellent products made as a result of such development, but these are important changes to the face of audio that change the map.
 
Arguably, many improvements seen in the last 25 years are down to audio now being unconstrained by price. We'd never have products like the Alexandria XLF, the SME Model 30/12, or the VTL Siegfried were it not for that ultra-high-end market, and we'd never see products trickling down from these devices as a result.

However, I'd say over the last 25 years, IMO the most significant improvements seen are as follows, and in no particular order:

1. The recognition that we now swim in an ocean of Wi-Fi, and the rise of the products that can counter that
2. David Berning's ZOTL design
3. Gordon Rankin's Asynchronous USB
4. Lyngdorf's Millennium
5. Devialet's Class ADH
6. DSP room correction
7. Ethernet UPnP streaming
8. Changes in materials science in loudspeakers
9. BMR drive units
10. 3D printing (both for modelling, and increasingly for fabrication of products)

Most of the rest is development of existing technologies. Not that is a bad thing and there are some excellent products made as a result of such development, but these are important changes to the face of audio that change the map.

Interesting list. To my ears, DSP room correction has had the most profound effect on what one easily hears at the LP. There are some who argue against this technology (many of whom have never heard it or heard it done correctly), but they are the small minority.

I would also add speaker enclosure materials (Wilson, Magico et al).

Improved DACs (at lower and lower prices). What one paid 7 or 8 years ago for sound quality of the full dCS stack (I think mine had an MSRP of $44,000) can now be had for about 10% of the price.

The price of a great analog turntable has really dropped as well.

Lastly, while the technology is not new, a much broader acceptance and use of passive room treatments has made home audio sound much better.
 
Well DVD-Audio died, SACD is as good as dead in many places, Elcassette never even made it to living enough to die, and DAT made a splash pro-side but died an agonising death in domestic. It's dead and buried now.

R2R is essentially a zombie format, reanimated using mostly old tapes and even older machines brought back to life by the care and attention of dedicated souls, but you'll not find much in the way of new stock tape heads kicking round now. The amount of NOS should be enough to keep the small army of R2R enthusiasts going, however.

LP all but went the same way as R2R, were it not for the hipsters. Whether its regrowth will survive the great beard cull of 2015 remains to be seen.

Alan sorry to correct you but there is absolutely no problem procuring tape heads. JRF or Flux Magnetic heads are readily available and in fact are markedly BETTER than the stock heads. Many if not most studios using tape have switched over like Bernie Grundman and our own Bruce on WBF. No, tape is not for everyone, primarily because of cost, not sound. But if you put the price of tape from 1958 into the CPI, there's actually been no increase in cost. For those seeking the ultimate in sound in their homes, there's nothing like tape.

As far as new music, you should have come to the tape forum at Axpona that I hosted and seen the number of companies releasing new recordings on tape. And as the list grows, more companies will join the list. As a matter of fact, the new Lyn Stanley release produced and recorded by Al Schmidt (in analog) will soon be available on R2R.

As far as new machines go, Greg Beron at UHA can't keep up with demand. He's back ordered something like two months on his machines and Christian (here) and Jock (over at audioshark) are patiently waiting their turn. Remember his turn key machines also come with a two year warranty.

For others, there's certainly the refurbished machine route like J-Corder and ATR-Aria machines as well as Arian Jansen's totally rebuilt Revoxes known as ATR-10s. In fact, look through the Newport Show pics and you'll see one in Philip O'Hanlon's room. How good is the ATR-10? Pick up any of the NEW recordings done by Yarlung Records on LP/CD/Hi Rez files or tape (yes they're available in all formats) done with Arian's machine and the classic, tube with gold frame C24 mike. I'll be a monkey's uncle if they don't knock your socks off. (Not to mention the Lysy recording won a Grammy.) I put Smoke and Mirrors on this weekend (one if my choices for product of the year last year) and played it back through the Magico S5s. Listeners were gob smacked. Low end on digital? Please. The low end on this puts digital to shame (MikeL should, if he hasn't already, get this tape and play it back through his speakers!). Oughta set off a few seismic warnings. Yarlung is a relatively new audiophile music label who's story has yet to be told.

Rather than sounding like a bunch of crotchety old farts, writers and audiophiles should be frigging hailing the reintroduction of this format since IMHO it's the real high Rez format (how many of your DSD files are really DSD?). If audiophiles demand tape, the format will survive. But when writers crap all over the medium, especially without hearing it, then there's something wrong. And you know what? I'm not sure I can honestly say I'd be involved in high-end audio if all we had to listen to was digital recordings. But that's just me.

Tell you what. The next time you're in New York, you have an open invitation to come hear tape at my place and tell me it's not the best sound you ever heard in a home environment. In fact, we'll compare some reissued LPs played back on the new VPI Classic Direct with the 2nd or 3rd generation tapes and you can report back on what you heard. In fact, five audiophiles dropped by my place at various times over the past week and not one left not being astounded by the sound of tape. Once you've heard tape, there's no going back.
 
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Myles


I don't think the debate is about the relative quality of the formats. From most quarters R2R sounds good.

But one must say that if it is music you are looking for, there are other format and these days for most music, most people care about, it is on the new formats, those that would remain nameless.

To go back to the tenor of the thread. I believe that DSP is here to stay in High End Audio. There will be latecomers and many will not even want to hear about it since it involves the dreaded word with the "digit" prefix :). They will be the minority, it will not take long.
I believe that the same digits, on a different form have helped in producing better transducers and cabinets. To my ears speakers and DAC are where action and progress are.
3D printing will touch the high-end in a big way: It will allow better. drivers, cabinets, electric components such as resistors, capacitors, coils. We haven't seen much action in this sector aside from the arm by VPI. We will see much more in the years to come as designers harness the technology and the markets starts seeing it as a proof odf high quality (like CNC a close cousin). As for electronics as in amplification, i am not at all convinced that there have been much progress some of the best electronics I have heard tend to retain their products for many years without much change and remain at the top regardless (Burmester, Boulder, FM Acoustics, to name those few)
 
The more we learnt, the more we discover how much we don't yet know....

- Magnetic field and how it affects sound reproduction application.
- physical changes in optical disc media after each successive spin/read in a transport/ player.
- physical changes on the surface of various disc media after coming in contact with other materials and how it subsequently affect sound reproduction application.
- dynamic compression & RF pollution, and why more audiophiles prefer them, subconsciously.

Magnetic issues are often addressed by non-magnetic chassis and proper grounding. Music servers bypass the degradation issues of digital, until the media in the disk fails that is. Audiophiles don't actually like dynamic compression and RFI, contrary to your comment. I've not seen any evidence that they prefer it subconsciously either.

The year was 1977. Linda Ronstadt just released her classic album "Simple Dreams". I was living in LA and went out to buy the LP immediately. I scoured 20 stores in search of a flat LP. I don't mean pancake flat. I mean reasonably flat. I bought 20 copies from record stores throughout Lala land from Santa Monica to Pasadena to Long Beach. Just gimme one damn flat LP, is that too hard to ask for? Nada, no way, no how. I returned 20 copies. Got so good at buying warped records that after a while I didn't bother leaving the store. Opened them right then and there for immediate return. Wish I had those damn outer rings then. I guess in that regard, there have been improvements over the past 25 years. Very few LPs are horribly warped these days. And just in time for a medium that is headed toward antiquity! (Sorry Myles :( )

Sounds like you lived in the wrong part of the country. I've only had to return one LP for warp issues ever, and I have a *lot* of LPs and have been buying since 1971.

To me it's the opposite. Digital has come so far and now sounds more precise and detailed than LP. I think that's because of all the inherent flaws in LPs. I still love LPs despite this though. Interesting topic on the subject here by Jim Smith.

Oops: just realized Myles was also talking about R2R and when it comes to that I don't disagree. Tape is king!

Hm. Inherently flaws or flaws in your particular playback? If you really want to hear what LPs can do, direct-to-disk is really the only way to do that. The limitations in most LPs are the source (tape or digital file) and the playback. I can go into this in more depth than I will here, but the short reason is its impossible to overload an LP mastering system, and the resulting lathe cuts usually have more bandwidth and lower distortion than any other format. Plus they are spooky quiet! The surface noise comes in during the pressing process, as Chad Kassam at Acoustic Sounds has proven with his new pressing machines. They make pressings so quiet its hard to hear the difference in noise floor between them and our lathe cuts!

Yes, CDs will be replaced by high-res downloads. Vinyl will be around, but primarily for the nostalgia crowd. The current vinyl 'boom' will soon peak, and then start collapsing. Once the current group of people getting into vinyl accidentally ruin a few records, tire of getting up to change sides, tire of cleaning, tire of tone arm and cartridge adjustments, tire of surface noise, pops, and clicks, and experience the sound, ease, and convenience of a good digital system they will trash their vinyl system so fast the vendors will wonder what happened.

The thing that is supporting LPs is not audiophiles! Audiophiles need to get this straight. The thing that supports the LPs is kids and they aren't on a nostalgia kick- they are on a coolness kick and its been going on a long time. Any local band here in town that is worth 2 shakes of a stick will put out an LP rather than a CD or digital download for the simple reason that they are cool (and sound better too).
 

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