I would say the same thing about available music on hi-rez vs. plain old CD.
BTW, I am thouroughly impressed by what CD can do through my Berkeley Alpha DAC2, much more than I had anticipated. I certainly haven't yet encountered the 'ceiling' of resolution that Myles is taking about, a ceiling that some time ago I also had thought existed at much lower resolution than I hear now from CD, with my new DAC and other system improvements. Every old CD that I listen to is a new revelation after the addition of the new BorderPatrol external power supplies for the amps. So much more spatial, ambience and timbral information than before. So far the CD medium has effortless 'grown' with the improvements in my system, and I see no reason for this not to continue.
I think your right. I for one except the differences between analog and digital. I hope digital continues to improve although I think depending on the system digital can be stunning right now. I listened to Madame Butterfly London Pavoratti last night and the level of information had me wondering how good can it get. It can get better,as I always say.
Someday a electronics designer will incorporate a dedicated ground for EMI mitigation to earth ground and then you will have a noiseless system,which is far more important then finding ways to squeeze some distortion lower which is already low enough for great sound.
Unless the High End looks in different directions I really don't see any real major progress being made. IMHO
High End has looked in many different directions! Also, grounding is an issue that even today is poorly understood. For example- you don't need the scheme you outline above to be noise free- the issue is that you do have to have proper grounding, which should be built into the equipment. Instead, we are seeing some really expensive grounding 'solutions' but in an informal study I did, I found that in every case where the grounding system worked to good effect, the equipment that was involved also had errors in the way it was grounded.
High End has looked in many different directions! Also, grounding is an issue that even today is poorly understood. For example- you don't need the scheme you outline above to be noise free- the issue is that you do have to have proper grounding, which should be built into the equipment. Instead, we are seeing some really expensive grounding 'solutions' but in an informal study I did, I found that in every case where the grounding system worked to good effect, the equipment that was involved also had errors in the way it was grounded.
So you think enough research has been done on grounding? The cable industry was born out of a few ingenius people discovering that noise is produced between each component and cables could be designed to mitigate some of that noise. The problem is that high end cables are only a band aid,they do nothing for the noise created by electronic circuits. Do manufacturers know with how much EMI is produced and what effect that has on reproduced sound. Granted that some manufacturers use better grounding schemes then others,but internal schemes do have limitations and the only way to reduce the noise is to send it back to ground. The limiting factor is that present grounding is not enough to mitigate all the noise and I think that a residual amount will always be present. The question is how big the pathway to ground needs to be and that can only be determined by experimentation. I agree high priced ground solutions border on predatory. YMMV
^^ I've been running balanced lines for many years and really don't agree with your post. I'll just put it this way: if you have a balanced line set up properly, there will be no artifact from the cable and no noise, which you don't have to 'send back to ground' (although I can't be 100% sure about that as whatever you are trying to say here is not translating into engineering terms). Its better if you ignore ground entirely. Also, if the equipment is grounded correctly it will be quieter, generally speaking.
^^ I've been running balanced lines for many years and really don't agree with your post. I'll just put it this way: if you have a balanced line set up properly, there will be no artifact from the cable and no noise, which you don't have to 'send back to ground' (although I can't be 100% sure about that as whatever you are trying to say here is not translating into engineering terms). Its better if you ignore ground entirely. Also, if the equipment is grounded correctly it will be quieter, generally speaking.
The thing to understand about balanced lines is that they and their standard were created to eliminate cable artifact. The part about the standard is that if you don't adhere to it, you will get artifacts from the cables. In high end audio most manufacturers don't adhere to the standard so results vary.
We developed and marketed the first balanced line products to high end audio. When we did that we made sure our stuff supported the balanced line standards. What has surprised me is how often we see companies claim that they have balanced line operation, only to find out later that really isn't the case at all. We've seen companies do alternate pinouts on the connectors, leave pins unused on the connectors (which means its only there for convenience and confusion) but the most common problem is that most companies will have a sort of balanced product, but they will allow signal currents to exist in the shield. A real balanced line connection ignores ground...
If your disagreement is about the noise thing, perhaps you could explain what is meant by 'sending the noise back to ground'?
Myles, even if your numbers are accurate (I remain skeptical- not sure there's broad support for anyone who thinks 60M LPs were sold last year vs the Nielsen estimate of 6M), it's not just a quantitative issue, it's a qualitative one. Who is recording on LPs that is of interest to me now? You cited the NY TImes article that uses the example of "Daft Punk". Sorry, but that just doesn't do it for me. Simply put, aside from a few exquisite audiophile LPs and some interesting re-issues, the sheer lack of software makes vinyl a disappointing option for source material these days. Look at the (Nielsen) estimate of 6M LPs sold last year and compare that to the number of sales the heydey of the LP era: Thriller (42M); Dark Side of the Moon (22M) Eagles Greatest Hits (32M). For God's sake, even Meatloaf's Bat out of Hell sold 20M LPs. These 4 albums alone dwarf any sales from the entire discography combined sold today as LPs. Daft Punk is a pimple in the history of music that (hopefully, much like Paris Hilton) will soon disappear from civilized society. But if that, or other music of its kind is the majority of new material offered on LP, then I just can't see how this can be anything but a "Zombie" format in the long run, especially once the older audiophile set starts to experience attrition. I listened to 2 hours of digitally streamed music last night- not one damn piece of music available on any known LP! Did I wish the sound was better, at times? Sure, but that didn't stop me from enjoying what I was hearing. Even my wishful thinking does not preclude the fact that all the hopes and prayers you have for vinyl are not going to change the fact that it is only just a pittance of music that is and will always, be available in the LP (or R2R) format we all know and love. Time to face it buddy, you'll eventually have to come over to the digital dark side if you want to hear any significant amount of new music reproduced in your home. In the words of the Borg "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated".
Marty-Have you been to the Elusive Disc site or Acoustic Sounds lately and looked at all of the LPs that are currently available for sale both new music and reissues?
Myles, even if your numbers are accurate (I remain skeptical- not sure there's broad support for anyone who thinks 60M LPs were sold last year vs the Nielsen estimate of 6M), it's not just a quantitative issue, it's a qualitative one. Who is recording on LPs that is of interest to me now? You cited the NY TImes article that uses the example of "Daft Punk". Sorry, but that just doesn't do it for me. Simply put, aside from a few exquisite audiophile LPs and some interesting re-issues, the sheer lack of software makes vinyl a disappointing option for source material these days. Look at the (Nielsen) estimate of 6M LPs sold last year and compare that to the number of sales the heydey of the LP era: Thriller (42M); Dark Side of the Moon (22M) Eagles Greatest Hits (32M). For God's sake, even Meatloaf's Bat out of Hell sold 20M LPs. These 4 albums alone dwarf any sales from the entire discography combined sold today as LPs. Daft Punk is a pimple in the history of music that (hopefully, much like Paris Hilton) will soon disappear from civilized society. But if that, or other music of its kind is the majority of new material offered on LP, then I just can't see how this can be anything but a "Zombie" format in the long run, especially once the older audiophile set starts to experience attrition. I listened to 2 hours of digitally streamed music last night- not one damn piece of music available on any known LP! Did I wish the sound was better, at times? Sure, but that didn't stop me from enjoying what I was hearing. Even my wishful thinking does not preclude the fact that all the hopes and prayers you have for vinyl are not going to change the fact that it is only just a pittance of music that is and will always, be available in the LP (or R2R) format we all know and love. Time to face it buddy, you'll eventually have to come over to the digital dark side if you want to hear any significant amount of new music reproduced in your home. In the words of the Borg "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated".
Kids have driven the recording industry for a very long time. Seems to me in the 1960s Classical represented 10% of the market. Now its a fraction of a percent.
To understand what is happening with the LP, Google 'Arcade Fire'. Their second LP, which was on an independant label, met with pretty good success a few years ago. You could find it in any record store in the US, as well as WalMart and Target.
Daft Punk? Their soundtrack for the Tron movie sold out instantly and is now worth $300 on ebay if you can find a copy. They are a popular band (and they are not punk, BTW...).
Kids drive LP sales. Its that simple. As audiophiles we are insulated from what is going on. Try this out- go into a record shop and look through the LPs. How may titles/bands have you heard of? I try to stay current as much as I can and I can tell you that I don't know 1% of what is out there on LP.
There is so much new music on LP there is no way I can keep up. There is a reason why every mastering house in the US has 6 months of work for them and its been that way for the last year.
No it's servers and computer audio that's not convenient. No average Joe without a PHD in Technogeekology has the time or wants to take the time to learn how to load their CD collection on a music server. Computer audio is 100 steps behind with no normal person wanting to go though the trials and travails of working with unwieldy software and computers. No, analog hasn't and continues to be a thorn in the side of digital protagonists. Now those are facts that fly in the face of your argument.
Are you kidding?? Drop the CD in the drawer, set-up what format you want, once, walk away and repeat. It is so easy it defies description. Plus I can playlist any number of songs in any order , or just pick random for the entire library or just play a entire CD or artist or composer or geners. Can't do that with vinyl without changing records constantly.
That's assuming you have to rip the CD's if it's all Itunes/downloaded files there is basically nothing to do it all gets added automatically as they are purchased in Zune or I Tunes.
Are you kidding?? Drop the CD in the drawer, set-up what format you want, once, walk away and repeat. It is so easy it defies description. Plus I can playlist any number of songs in any order , or just pick random for the entire library or just play a entire CD or artist or composer or geners. Can't do that with vinyl without changing records constantly.
That's assuming you have to rip the CD's if it's all Itunes/downloaded files there is basically nothing to do it all gets added automatically as they are purchased in Zune or I Tunes.
I am talking specifically about computer audio. I should have explained it better. All you have to do is install the program if it doesn't already have one like Windows Media Player as an example. You get an I Pod and as soon as you plug it in thru a USB port it goes thru a wizard that loads the software finds all the music files already on your computer and creates a Music Library. If you purchase files through Amazon or I Tunes they are automatically added to the existing Library as you download them. If you drop in a CD it goes to the CDDB?? database gets the title and songs names find the artwork and asks you if you want to import the CD. It couldn't possibly be any easier. You can easily connect the soundcard output to a high level auxiliary input. Your done.
As far as the resolution of the files they have a default that can be changed to any number of formats and resolution. From MP3 ABR, FBR, VBR, Joint Stereo and several bitrates to AAC same selections to Lossless compression to wave files. A novice doesn't even have to change from the original default.
Myles you don't have an Ipod???
I just don't see how this is in anyway beyond your average Joe as it is all essentially software driven and tailored for ease of use.
Why because of the number?? I have hundreds of CD's loaded. It doesn't take that long at all to rip them. They are not being ripped at 1X more like 10X or faster. Just because you have many to add doesn't make the process harder, just more time consuming. I rip mine while I listen to music. You would be surprised how many you can do in a week.
Yeah it's the number. Not all rips are equal in my experience so quite a bit of care is required. It's a bit of a mind numbing task and it's the reason I just bought a new stand alone CD player recently even if I do have a 6TB server and a couple of Amarra loaded laptops.
You start with your favorites, and do, maybe, ten or more, a week. It quickly adds up, and certainly isn't difficult. If this is to difficult for somebody then they will also have trouble tying their shoes, and crossing the street.
On the other hand, for newer, and future, releases you can just download the files. I will be downloading the new Led Zeppelin releases in 96/24. The same files used to cut the vinyl, but without the compression/equalization needed to put into analog.
The "average Joe" audiophile under age 35 (possibly under 40) is running a computer-based system. Setup isn't nearly as complicated as people seem to think. The initial ripping process is somewhat slow, but only has to be done once. You can typically rip 10 discs per hour, which you do while you surf the internet or watch TV.
Music servers sell poorly because they're an unnecessary addition. Easier to just run the output directly from the computer or generic NAS, either wired or wirelessly.
The "average Joe" audiophile under age 35 (possibly under 40) is running a computer-based system. Setup isn't nearly as complicated as people seem to think. The initial ripping process is somewhat slow, but only has to be done once. You can typically rip 10 discs per hour, which you do while you surf the internet or watch TV.
Music servers sell poorly because they're an unnecessary addition. Easier to just run the output directly from the computer or generic NAS, either wired or wirelessly.
I am talking specifically about computer audio. I should have explained it better. All you have to do is install the program if it doesn't already have one like Windows Media Player as an example. You get an I Pod and as soon as you plug it in thru a USB port it goes thru a wizard that loads the software finds all the music files already on your computer and creates a Music Library. If you purchase files through Amazon or I Tunes they are automatically added to the existing Library as you download them. If you drop in a CD it goes to the CDDB?? database gets the title and songs names find the artwork and asks you if you want to import the CD. It couldn't possibly be any easier. You can easily connect the soundcard output to a high level auxiliary input. Your done.
As far as the resolution of the files they have a default that can be changed to any number of formats and resolution. From MP3 ABR, FBR, VBR, Joint Stereo and several bitrates to AAC same selections to Lossless compression to wave files. A novice doesn't even have to change from the original default.
Myles you don't have an Ipod???
I just don't see how this is in anyway beyond your average Joe as it is all essentially software driven and tailored for ease of use.
You took the easiest example possible. How about setting up a a laptop as a music server, installing Jriver, Foobar, etc,, and then installing an outboard DAC and have your software ready to play pretty much any digital file up to DSD. Also, factor in setting up the software on both your computer and an iPhone, iPad, etc, so they can act as a remote to control the server. Tell me how easy that is.
