Well what can I say. Forty years of listening means absolutely nothing......you just set audio back into the stone age. You see it works both ways.
What is "Sound Stage?"
- Thread starter Phelonious Ponk
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Well what can I say. Forty years of listening means absolutely nothing......you just set audio back into the stone age. You see it works both ways.
I think you misunderstand. Have you tried this:
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2010/12/how-to-listen-course-on-how-to.html
http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com/
It's interesting and challenging. I think 40 years of listening certainly makes a difference but again so will this. It will actually improve your listening skills. And it's free to try.
Rob
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I think you misunderstand. Have you tried this:
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2010/12/how-to-listen-course-on-how-to.html
It's interesting and challenging. I think 40 years of listening certainly makes a difference but again so will this. It will actually improve your listening skills. And it's free to try.
Rob
Misunderstand,there is a whole hell of a lot of that around here.
Hello, Bill. I admire your patience [along with Soundproof] in this thread. I can feel your aggravations, as it seems you keep repeating the same things. The quote above is one of these things, said many times. I would like you to know that I am in no way trying to confront, challenge or offer any kind of argument to the contrary. I'm trying my best to understand why I and others are getting height, when it has been stated many times that the recording nor the playback system can not offer this. I guess what I'm looking for is some guidance. I know frequencies, would like to think I know exactly what compression/limiting sound like. I know I do not like it every time I hear it, which is unfortunately often in my experience. Especially in today's mainstream recordings. What I may not understand or comprehend fully is all/most of the variables that contribute to a recording. I haven't been privy to that kind of exposure and how it relates to recorded music.bblue said:
That said, I just put back in Sarah McGlachlin. The same CD I had playing the other day and the results were repeatable. Her image was mostly dead center and again, above the tops of the speakers. I try to bring the image down in my mind with my eyes open or closed and I just can not do it. Her image does not sway. This is just one example. We have many examples of other members of this forum that have well executed layouts, along with professional acoustical treatment and top notch gear. Many of them have offered observations that included height. Much more than just slightly above the speakers.
This is just for the sake of discussion and learning, again, not confronting. Just trying to gain a better understanding of what it is you are telling us as to what a recording or playback system can not reproduce. At what point shall we stop the "various system (mis)configurations"? Some of these gentlemen who have observed height have spent well over what some would consider spending on their entire rig just on professional room treatments. Some of these same gentlemen have more invested in just the speakers than many folks would spend on a small house. Yet, they observe height.
So, what I'm getting at, is that you say it can't be done. Yet these systems, along with professional room treatments and years [even decades] of fine tuning their own slice of audio heaven still share "various system (mis)configurations"? With respect to some of these rigs, would you be so kind as to point out what what some various misconfigurations may be?
Here's where I'm coming from, if you will allow...The speakers are professionally built, designed and in some cases, placed in a proper location by the builder himself to provide optimum playback. The upstream gear, as you can well imagine, is all professionally built, engineered, isolated, etc. and in some cases, even removed from the room altogether. The rooms have been professionally treated by one or more acousticians. I'm having a hard time swallowing that they have "various misconfigurations", as the empirical evidence offered by these folks suggests that height can be achieved. One example offered was a height of 12' and repeatable on different days and with different observers that all agreed that they observed the same thing.
Instead of repeating the same things over and over, let's start addressing and getting into the understanding and detail of these repeated statements.
Frantz,
You are one the nice guys in this forum, and I enjoy debating your posts. But I have learned that sincere answers will be exploited and distorted by the truth brigade who knows it all and manipulate our sincere answers destroy our credibility.
So, yes and no. Some small mini monitors provide height and depending on system, large panels can provide flat soundstage with some ancillaries.
BTW, if you read my postings you will find I do not say anything new - I am not an audio researcher - I just collect and try to interpret others findings. Many others have thought about height. Unhappily it seems that opinions of reviewers and speaker manufacturers are not worth considering in WBF, these people have a conflict of interest with the truth.
And that's a good thing. Also, generally speaking, if you can actually hear a compressor working (and it's not being used as an effect) it is not adjusted correctly by the engineer. It's either got the wrong attack/release settings or is being overused.
which album is this? I'd like to hear it here.
There are a number of speaker manufacturers that use some odd techniques to get a sound they want. One such technique is to mount certain drivers (usually mid-range, but sometimes high frequency) pointing at an angle upward instead of straight ahead. Depending on how they are crossed over, and the source material you listen to, when there are frequencies dominant in the mix and centered in the range of one of the tilted drivers, it can project beyond the box. I had some Vandersteen speakers years ago that did that -- it drove me nuts!
Also, the type of crossovers used, what frequency they center on and their slope can have a similar effect in some cases. Crossover networks with a long slope (6b or 12db per octave) often have to have the drivers connected to them set out of phase with others so they will be in phase at the crossover point. That means that you might have the bass speaker producing a positive wavefront, midrange a negative wavefront, etc. As the phase twists from 0 to 180 degrees through the crossover in this type of system, some funny things can happen outside of the box.
In order for JUST the vocal on your SM example to be above the speaker cabinet and nothing else, something -- a driver position, a crossover, or something else doing some physical reflecting has to be projecting that particular range of frequencies oddly. Another thing that can cause this is if bass and midrange drivers are out of phase from each other (unintentionally) and the resulting cancellations in the crossover range push the voice away from the woofer, i.e. up.
I don't know your speakers so it's hard to speciulate further. One thing for sure, it's not a function of the recording. Have you confirmed that your speakers are the same phase as each other? (dumb question, I'm sure, but you never know)
And I don't doubt that for a minute. It's just not a product of the recording. And some hear height as a product of driver placement and believe it to somehow relate to the recording. I very definitely hear height and positional information from my speakers, but only because of the distance between drivers.
You know, just because of the credentials are good and they have had 'professional' room treatments doesn't mean that everything is right. The folks that have a big open live room that believe it is going to enhance the recording are undoubtedly getting all sorts of phase shifted reflections from all over the place that will influence the presentation of height. If the rooms are too small and the speakers are large or tall, there are other influences that can radically affect the sound stage they present.
I have walked into recording studios with their monitor speakers out of phase, and the engineer completely unaware of it. I've gone into another where the highs were in phase but the LF driver was out of phase. Again, the head engineer of 15 years or more was unaware. I hear it immediately, and I don't even have to be IN the room, just outside the open door in many cases.
Extending that a little further, there are a lot of 'pros' out there doing acoustics and room treatments that barely know what they're doing. Some do, of course, but the point is that it is very hard to gauge what all may be going on in even an experienced listener's system that was done by accident and he just believes it is right. You can't tell over a forum.
I'm not sure how that can be done without hearing the system. You have people with no professional listening experience expressing opinions based on only what they hear on their system (not directed to any specific people here), or going by what the dealer or HT room designer told them. I know it's a very touchy subject to a lot of people, but there are huge variables involved that can't be trouble-shot by description only. And you can always find a group of friends who think the system in question is just wonderful -- but what does that mean? Nothing.
As far as professional speaker designs is concerned (and equipment), have you ever noticed how every one of the high end manufacturers make pretty much the same claims about their designs? But they ALL can't be perfect, or even close. Yet you can always find someone who likes them for one reason or another. But how many are basing their opinion on how accurately the speaker or equipment in question renders the source? Not many. It's mostly personal preference.
I have a friend who has speakers that are easily 8' tall, but they contain a full height electrostatic panel on the inside of each, and a long row of alternating low and midrange drivers from floor to ceiling. It's a nice all tube system, yet there is no variable height being projected! It's a very big and powerful image, to be sure but everything sounds like it is right in front of you with width and depth, very clear, but the same height. It focuses toward you whether you are sitting or standing -- very nicely and accurately detailed.
I hope I have been objective to your questions.
--Bill
How about increasing sound pressure,a increase in the volume of air moved,natural bloom,ect. There are many many examples. A very high resolution system should be able to make a good accounting of these attributes in live sound.
Thank you for your response, Bill.
. This is good, as this is how I might learn something. I will check but this will require almost a complete dismantling of my speakers. Ty will not provide schematics, so I will have to follow everything within to a "T", in order to verify this. The speakers I have are the Tyler Acoustic Lynbrook Signature Edition speakers. The one piece towers, not separates. Below is a stock photo...
Before I [and possibly others] go and devote a big chunk of time verifying that every aspect of the speakers are in phase, allow me to ask you this. If, we both hear the same exact thing on the LEDR test [Chesky's CD mentioned earlier that you were so kind to have purchased], wouldn't that indicate that the speakers did not have an internal wiring issue with something being out of phase?
I also have plenty of phase tests on Carver CD's, Stereophile CD's and Chesky CD's. Instead of ripping the speakers apart, is there a way to verify 100% that all is well?
One more thing, if you do not mind me asking....how do you detect an out of phase signal from a particular driver, whether from the same room or another? I would imagine that there has to be some sort of aural clue that tips you off to it, especially if you can hear it with just one driver being out of phase in a multi-driver setup.
Oh dear, now you have me questioning my own system. Eh, I asked
. This is good, as this is how I might learn something. I will check but this will require almost a complete dismantling of my speakers. Ty will not provide schematics, so I will have to follow everything within to a "T", in order to verify this. The speakers I have are the Tyler Acoustic Lynbrook Signature Edition speakers. The one piece towers, not separates. Below is a stock photo...
Before I [and possibly others] go and devote a big chunk of time verifying that every aspect of the speakers are in phase, allow me to ask you this. If, we both hear the same exact thing on the LEDR test [Chesky's CD mentioned earlier that you were so kind to have purchased], wouldn't that indicate that the speakers did not have an internal wiring issue with something being out of phase?
I also have plenty of phase tests on Carver CD's, Stereophile CD's and Chesky CD's. Instead of ripping the speakers apart, is there a way to verify 100% that all is well?
One more thing, if you do not mind me asking....how do you detect an out of phase signal from a particular driver, whether from the same room or another? I would imagine that there has to be some sort of aural clue that tips you off to it, especially if you can hear it with just one driver being out of phase in a multi-driver setup.
Google is a wonderful tool. I am a founding member and have defended uncountable attacks against the obvious. Check ny posts.
If something only exists in the lateral plane it is a straight line. To have an image you have to have two planes vertical and horizontaL If the microphoine only responded the way you describe that would be a strange sound indeed.
If something only exists in the lateral plane it is a straight line. To have an image you have to have two planes vertical and horizontaL If the microphoine only responded the way you describe that would be a strange sound indeed.
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This is not an issue of first impression to me. I suppose if the quick google search was the first thing I ever read on the subject your point may be valid
I only have one agenda to share my opinion of what good stereo reproduction is. Do with it what you wish.
See above. I might add that while Google is fast it only works if you have some preexisting knowledge on the subject. It takes a lot of time to read and understand the articles it turns up.
Agreed. But sometimes believing one thing demands that you reject the otherYou need balance to have a true understanding.
Blah Blah Blah
Hello, Greg. While I have not read the research you have done, I know what you may be talking about with regards to planar or ribbon speakers. When I had ribbons, I would take my ear and literally place it 2" away from the ribbon itself. What I discovered was as I moved up the 60" ribbon, I would discover that the flutist was at one location. The singer was at another, say maybe 2 or 3 inches above the flutist. Then, 2 to 3" above that were the background singers with the harpist 2 to 3 inches above that. Over a 60" vertical rise, I can see how the driver can place sounds on the "height" aspect.
Wouldn't this be the same as say, a 3 way-multiple driver system? That being that it is the driver(s) itself being the cause or interpretation of the perceived height?
Bill,
Image height is a secondary aspect of stereo. What worries me is that I have perceived it with planar line speakers and also with Quad Esl63, that are point sources. The argument of the distribution of speaker units versus height can explain a lot in most cases, but some papers on height localization state that frequencies bellow 1000 Hz do not contribute to it , and the often used symmetrical Appolito like array has a point like center of gravity for all frequencies.
John Gordon Holt once wrote that image height was unpredictable and anomalous, and listeners should be trained to ignore it. However, if the faintly and not often perceived image height, when existing, systematically points in the correct sense, increases the illusion of the real and our listening pleasure, why should we train to ignore it?
Broken record session again - people should read F. Toole opinions about professional and consumer different targets in sound reproduction. And, just for to avoid misunderstandings and misinterpretations , F. Toole does not consider that stereo has height information.
Thanks for not ignoring me.(Smile)
I think this is a complicated subject probably deserving its' own thread.
The overwhelmig amount of research has been over the years for my own edification. Google makes it much easier to share what you have done.
First of all instruments can require more than one driver for reproduction. Percieved height can be influenced Seating positon, speaker height, driver location and recording technique. Morever different cone speakers have dispersion patterns.
I do not think that height perception is created by speaker placement. It certainly is a contributing factor. If you have a wide dispersion speaker it would contribute less. A narrow dispersion speaker would contribute more by its placement. Try standing , sitting and laying on the floor. You may find that the vertical placement shifts.
Good morning, Bill. Just following up with you. The CD you wanted to know about yesterday is Sarah McLachlan's "Mirrorball" CD [07822-19049-2].
Just for the sake of clarity, even I believe in, and experience "height perception." Vertical imaging, where you hear different sound sources placed in different positions, vertically, much in the way we experience lateral imaging, is what I believe is an illusion, a result of expectations and the artifacts of driver incoherence. Of course we can call that perception as well, but if someone wants to argue that it is in any way the tangible result of stereo recording and playback, I'm still waiting for them to show some evidence, based in something other than their own misunderstanding, of any mechanism or technology that would make that possible.
Tim
Tim
I blew this photo up to pixels and looked at the driver positioning, and I don't see anything obvious. Everything appears to point forward as it should. The positioning of that top mid-range driver is curious, though.Thank you for your response, Bill.
Oh dear, now you have me questioning my own system. Eh, I asked
I wouldn't expend too much time on trying to examine their crossovers, as you couldn't tell anything by looking -- only by measuring, and of course listening (less accurate).
When you hear Sarah over the speakers are you seated or standing? If you are seated and slowly stand up (or in one way or another, shift your head from low to high in a slow easy movement), how does the perception of that vocal change? Likewise, if you slowly move forward toward the center of the speakers, what changes?
Where are other instruments in this recording when Sarah's voice is above?
What happens to the sound of the image if you switch to mono? It should collapse into a pretty narrow point equidistant between the speakers. If it sounds like it's 'sort of' center but also all around you, one speaker may be out of phase (doubtful, but checking).
Back to stereo, get close to one speaker and move your head from bottom to top of the speaker (slowly) and note what you hear in front of each driver and between each driver pair. There should be a smooth transition from one driver to the next. If there's a sudden change of tonal characteristic between a pair, something may be wrong. Compare the same movement to the other speaker and see. If there seems to be a hollow point or dip in level between any pair, something could be going on.
It may, yes. But that test is produced with a frequency limited mid-range, that by manipulation of the phasing between low and high frequency content and some notch filtering of that sound create the effect of vertical movement. Other aberrations could exist outside of that range of frequencies that could cause other effects.
That would depend on how well you recognize in and out of phase. They should, in theory.
If you're concerned that your speakers could be out of phase with each other, just ID the speaker cabling at the amp and speakers and make sure negative/ground and positive/signal leads are connected the same way on each of the four ends.
Another way to tell relative phase is to move the speakers right next to each other and play a low frequency tone -- around 60-100Hz. If the speakers are out of phase, when they are both on the acoustic level of the tone will be significantly lower in total volume. If they are in phase the level should increase.
For me it's a feeling of pulling on my ear drums, along with an extreme reduction of certain frequencies in common to the drivers in question. If the whole system is out of phase one speaker to the other, it's very uncomfortable, while at the same time the sound seems to be around you, instead of centered in front of you (mono). If it's just one driver of one speaker it will 'pull' on the ears but only in a range of frequencies specific to that driver. If it's out of phase drivers (same on both sides), a mono source will sound too diffuse and have an undefined 'pulling' characteristic that I can't identify without getting a lot closer to the front of the speakers. That's just me, though, others may have different cues for it. But in practice any significant phase shift (any of the above) will negatively impact the detail and depth of the sound, while at the same time shifting the sound stage around in such a way that there could seem to be a certain added depth or liveness, that really isn't there.
HTH.
--Bill
Any particular track more than others? I have Laws of Illusion, Surfacing and Touch, but not Mirrorball. Will check around and see if I can buy a download copy quickly.
--Bill
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