What is "Sound Stage?"

[Soundproof]

Reading this thread gives me the impression that scale to some degree cannot to reproduced in a audio system. If you say not to the same degree as the actual event I agree. But on a properly engineered and mic'd recording you do not get a sense of what you are listening to, like a 30 person chorus and the power,space,energy,and shear volume isn't apparent,let's just say you have something to look forward to.

Another straw man argument, then, presupposing people "haven't heard what I hear" and their opinions should therefore be discounted. Speaking for myself, with my various loudspeaker choices, I have a wonderfully expansive soundstage, where many recordings blow away walls. (Variable length listening room, 11 feet high, 15 feet wide, and variable 24 or 50 feet long, depending upon whether the ceiling height doors six feet behind the listening position are open or closed.)

I can divulge I have an analytical mind and a tendency to weep during very engaging passages of music. I also have friends and acquaintances who like to invite themselves over to listen to their favorite music.

Right. That off my chest, I think that all I'm eager to hear is a credible explanation of auditory phenomena that are described as "despite what hifi magazines will tell you, conventional stereo can not reveal height." Conventional stereo is what we've got if you are listening to two speakers placed side-by-side, in front of you.

 

[RogerD]

Another straw man argument, then, presupposing people "haven't heard what I hear" and their opinions should therefore be discounted. Speaking for myself, with my various loudspeaker choices, I have a wonderfully expansive soundstage, where many recordings blow away walls. (Variable length listening room, 11 feet high, 15 feet wide, and variable 24 or 50 feet long, depending upon whether the ceiling height doors six feet behind the listening position are open or closed.)

I can divulge I have an analytical mind and a tendency to weep during very engaging passages of music. I also have friends and acquaintances who like to invite themselves over to listen to their favorite music.

Right. That off my chest, I think that all I'm eager to hear is a credible explanation of auditory phenomena that are described as "despite what hifi magazines will tell you, conventional stereo can not reveal height." Conventional stereo is what we've got if you are listening to two speakers placed side-by-side, in front of you.

Forget the science for one moment,please does Julie London occupy the same sonic space foot print as Barbara Streisand?? All I'm saying is that there are other reasons for the illusion of height in a audio system.

 

[RogerD]

Another straw man argument, then, presupposing people "haven't heard what I hear" and their opinions should therefore be discounted. Speaking for myself, with my various loudspeaker choices, I have a wonderfully expansive soundstage, where many recordings blow away walls. (Variable length listening room, 11 feet high, 15 feet wide, and variable 24 or 50 feet long, depending upon whether the ceiling height doors six feet behind the listening position are open or closed.)

I can divulge I have an analytical mind and a tendency to weep during very engaging passages of music. I also have friends and acquaintances who like to invite themselves over to listen to their favorite music.

Right. That off my chest, I think that all I'm eager to hear is a credible explanation of auditory phenomena that are described as "despite what hifi magazines will tell you, conventional stereo can not reveal height." Conventional stereo is what we've got if you are listening to two speakers placed side-by-side, in front of you.

So a 30 person choir does produce a top to bottom,side to side,beyond your walls soundstage? It should.

Plus don't be so condecsending,also.

 

[fas42]

That off my chest, I think that all I'm eager to hear is a credible explanation of auditory phenomena that are described as "despite what hifi magazines will tell you, conventional stereo can not reveal height." Conventional stereo is what we've got if you are listening to two speakers placed side-by-side, in front of you.

If we rephrase that quote as "despite what hifi magazines will tell you, conventional stereo can not create the illusion of height." where do people stand? If they are different from the point of view of the recording, why are they different?

Frank

 

[RogerD]

Frank, forget it....this threads needs to die,just like many others....RIP

 

[fas42]

Ahhhh, we have go back to that dreary ol' business of "enjoying the music", do we? Tsk, how boring ...

Frank

 

[NorthStar]

Did you guys watch the Academy Awards?

Hugo & The Artist were the 'high' winners. :b

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

If we rephrase that quote as "despite what hifi magazines will tell you, conventional stereo can not create the illusion of height." where do people stand? If they are different from the point of view of the recording, why are they different?

Frank

It's a long thread and I could have missed it, but I don't think anyone has argued that there is no illusion, no sense of height, no vertical sound stage, that stereo presents its image in a narrow horizontal band no wider than the tops and bottoms of your cabinets.

On the other hand several here have argued that their systems present a vertical stero image -- kick drum down here on the floor, piano a couple of feet higher, guitars and horns a bit higher still, voices on top. A few others have posted their belief, unshaken by the facts, that the information that allows their stereo systems to present this image is captured by microphones, and encoded in recordings. This is a very different argument. This is the argument that persists here. The other one, the argument against a perception of a vertical stage beyond your speakers, ever only had one side, and no proponents, only an opposition that either doesn't understand the real subject, or would rather change it than stand by their position.

Tim

 

[FrantzM]

It's a long thread and I could have missed it, but I don't think anyone has argued that there is no illusion, no sense of height, no vertical sound stage, that stereo presents its image in a narrow horizontal band no wider than the tops and bottoms of your cabinets.

On the other hand several here have argued that their systems present a vertical stero image -- kick drum down here on the floor, piano a couple of feet higher, guitars and horns a bit higher still, voices on top. A few others have posted their belief, unshaken by the facts, that the information that allows their stereo systems to present this image is captured by microphones, and encoded in recordings. This is a very different argument. This is the argument that persists here. The other one, the argument against a perception of a vertical stage beyond your speakers, ever only had one side, and no proponents, only an opposition that either doesn't understand the real subject, or would rather change it than stand by their position.

Tim

This sums it up rather nicey. Let me add my own take at the risk of diltuing Tim limpid post:

Do we hear some height in our soundstage? yes
Is IT encoded? NO
DO we hear different height of performers? NO but we can mentally reconstruct it based on prior information. Just like perspective drawing, it is not a natural ability. We humans are only TAUGHT to draw and see in perspective.

Let's drop the Strawman Arguments for a while. It will only advance the discussion ... You too Frank

 

[bblue]

I mentioned it before; in some recordings I can 'perceive' the height of a drum kit.
The cymbals sound higher, and the big kick drum is closer to the floor.
But then, it's just my imagination as there is no such thing in real stereo recordings. :b

And that's correct for a multi-driver speaker with tweeters on top, midrange drivers in the middle and bass driver at the bottom. You're hearing the height of the drivers producing frequencies that are in their respective ranges. The cymbals are primarily produced by the tweeters, so their height will be that of the tweeters, etc. It has nothing to do with the recording.

--Bill

 

[Robh3606]

And that's correct for a multi-driver speaker with tweeters on top, midrange drivers in the middle and bass driver at the bottom. You're hearing the height of the drivers producing frequencies that are in their respective ranges. The cymbals are primarily produced by the tweeters, so their height will be that of the tweeters, etc. It has nothing to do with the recording.

--Bill

What about a single full range driver?? No perception of height at all?? If the tweeters are above your head I can see this as more prevelent. Normaly the listening axis is on the tweeter because of directivity issues up high and of course the aim of the frontal lobe from the crossover also contributes. I have some large systems and I don't hear the drivers by themselves. I have 15" woofers a 10" midrange and a 1ft square waveguide in one system and no obvious driver seperation. The image height floats centered at the top on the 10" between the midrange and the waveguide.

Rob

 

[RogerD]

And that's correct for a multi-driver speaker with tweeters on top, midrange drivers in the middle and bass driver at the bottom. You're hearing the height of the drivers producing frequencies that are in their respective ranges. The cymbals are primarily produced by the tweeters, so their height will be that of the tweeters, etc. It has nothing to do with the recording.

--Bill

really?

 

[bblue]

What about a single full range driver?? No perception of height at all?? If the tweeters are above your head I can see this as more prevelent. Normaly the listening axis is on the tweeter because of directivity issues up high and of course the aim of the frontal lobe from the crossover also contributes. I have some large systems and I don't hear the drivers by themselves. I have 15" woofers a 10" midrange and a 1ft square waveguide in one system and no obvious driver seperation. The image height floats centered at the top on the 10" between the midrange and the waveguide.

Rob

You're right. But I'd bet that as you raise and lower your head relative to the height of the cabinet, the perceived instrument placement (if any) will vary.

Any time you have more than one driver, it's not point source. In your case you have three sources in different positions, two with dispersion characteristics of a speaker, and one of an entirely different characteristic. If you are back far enough from them, they could sound as if they are one source, but they wouldn't sound like one source when you move around, or are closer. All speakers can sound like one source if you're far enough away from them, but then room acoustics really get into the picture.

--Bill

 

[bblue]

really?

yes. It would depend on the cymbal and how it's played. They can have a frequency range of around 1kHz (or even lower for large ones) up to or above 20kHz. But typically because of the mics and eq used they center in the upper mid and full treble driver ranges.

--Bill

 

[RogerD]

yes. It would depend on the cymbal and how it's played. They can have a frequency range of around 1kHz (or even lower for large ones) up to or above 20kHz. But typically because of the mics and eq used they center in the upper mid and full treble driver ranges.

--Bill

Yes recording dependent,but for the most part cymbals are well above the horizontal plane of the tweeters. Listening to good recordings they are omni directional.

 

[RogerD]

Also,this is my experience as signal purity increases,the sound stage size,volume,depth,width,height,ect will expand and intensify. That is why no two systems portray the same sound stage exactly. There are other factors, room acoustics,speaker design,ect. But the lower ultimate degradation of the signal the better the sound stage.

 

[bblue]

Yes recording dependent,but for the most part cymbals are well above the horizontal plane of the tweeters. Listening to good recordings they are omni directional.

In this context, what do you mean by omni-directional? If they sound as if they're above the tweeters, the tweeter or mid to tweeter crossover is causing it. The tweeter may project different patterns directionally according to frequency range in question. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some speaker designers do this deliberately to prove their speaker's superiority by being able to produce 'height'.

Also,this is my experience as signal purity increases,the sound stage size,volume,depth,width,height,ect will expand and intensify. That is why no two systems portray the same sound stage exactly. There are other factors, room acoustics,speaker design,ect. But the lower ultimate degradation of the signal the better the sound stage.

For sure. Better quality recording means better detail, and better detail preserves positional information more accurately. But again, the height is somehow a local illusion, perhaps influenced in our head by a wider and deeper soundstage. I know that I have felt the illusion here, but when I move up and down to analyze position exactly, it's right where it should be relative to the drivers.

--Bill

 

[RogerD]

In this context, what do you mean by omni-directional? If they sound as if they're above the tweeters, the tweeter or mid to tweeter crossover is causing it. The tweeter may project different patterns directionally according to frequency range in question. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some speaker designers do this deliberately to prove their speaker's superiority by being able to produce 'height'.

For sure. Better quality recording means better detail, and better detail preserves positional information more accurately. But again, the height is somehow a local illusion, perhaps influenced in our head by a wider and deeper soundstage. I know that I have felt the illusion here, but when I move up and down to analyze position exactly, it's right where it should be relative to the drivers.

--Bill

If you take a live performance and reduce the scale to fit in your listening room,what would it sound like? Uncompressed? Just think for a minute if there was the purist signal sent to your transducer,what would it sound like.

 

[bblue]

If you take a live performance and reduce the scale to fit in your listening room,what would it sound like? Uncompressed? Just think for a minute if there was the purist signal sent to your transducer,what would it sound like.

I'm sorry, but I don't get where you're going with this.

I for one don't expect anything near the live performance depth or detail to be presented in a home system that is considerably smaller than the venue and recorded with limited directionality. That is a holy grail that will never be realized in conventional stereo recording.

Instead, I take it for what it is as acoustically reproduced and evaluate it primarily on the recording (electrical) accuracy within the scope of the medium used. I just can't imagine someone expecting to hear a live performance as it would be live, in their living room, except possibly as an illusion enhanced in your head.

--Bill

 

[RogerD]

I'm sorry, but I don't get where you're going with this.

I for one don't expect anything near the live performance depth or detail to be presented in a home system that is considerably smaller than the venue and recorded with limited directionality. That is a holy grail that will never be realized in conventional stereo recording.

Instead, I take it for what it is as acoustically reproduced and evaluate it primarily on the recording (electrical) accuracy within the scope of the medium used. I just can't imagine someone expecting to hear a live performance as it would be live, in their living room, except possibly as an illusion enhanced in your head.

--Bill

That's the answer I expected,thanks for being honest. The truth is nobody knows how a zero noise & distortion system would sound. There are clear markers that can be heard and evaluated. Once you have a system in place that allows these markers to be identified only then will your system truly reveal it's capabilities.

Also for all the scientific knowledge being expounded in this thread. How about somebody taking a stab at my original question.