What is the most musical, fast and accurate subwoofer you have heard?

audioguy

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Let me provide my perspective of bass after having owned more brands than I can count and having calibrated many other rooms over the past 30 years. I have categorized three "levels" of bass reproduction.

Level I: A single capable sub properly placed and with some level of EQ, - and driven at "reasonable levels" - will allow the listener to HEAR the frequencies down to 20Hz or so - and maybe with room gain, lower than that;

Level II: Multiple subs (the number of which would be dictated by the cubic footage of the listening space) allows the listener to begin to "EXPERIENCE" the bass, in addition to "HEARING" the bass. Which was my mode until 10 months ago. By that I mean, there are enough QUALITY subs to move enough air to begin to "activate" the room walls or floor or furniture or all of the above. More noticeable on movies but depending on the music, noticeable on it as well. Some music from, for example, Bella Fleck would certainly qualify but if you want to listen to a FUN piece of music and have access to Apple Music, try the cut shown in the image below (and if you happen to have an Atmos capable system, this cut is also a very fun Atmos using all of the speakers in your room);

Level III: Until I first heard an all Ascendo sub system, I had never experienced this level of bass. This level requires a huge amount of air displacement [combination of woofer size and linear displacement e.g. X-max] AND amps with lots of quality power and subs capable of the INSTANTANEOUS compression of all of the air in the room. Certainly the Ascendos do that and with enough capable subs, some combination of Harbottle subs MAY be able to do it as well. (I hope to find out soon). No other room I have been in, regardless of room size and numbers or brand of subs, has been able to pull this off. It really does take listening to a different level.

But as noted in my initial post, the beauty of these subs is the combination of the "Level III" performance but also their ability to enable the listener to "hear" bass that is typically hidden in most systems. I'm not a subwoofer designer so can't tell you how that happens, but it does.

Boom.jpeg

I've listened to 2 channel music for probably close 30 years using a sub, even when I had full range speakers capable of reaching the lowest octaves. In the typical 2 channel room, the speakers are place somewhere in the front part of the room away from both the front wall and side walls. That is almost ALWAYS not the optimum place in the room to get all of the best bass possible, so separate subs placed in the optimum location has the ability to provide the most optimum sound - ASSUMING the integration of the subs to the mains is done properly. In your specific case, and assuming sealed Ascendo subs, integration will be a lot more complex given the most likely totally different phase response between the subs and your Wilson speakers, which I think are a ported design.

I will be honest and say that if I ONLY listened to music in my room, and not movies, I probably would not have invested the equivalent of the price of a really nice car with my specific sub combination - though I would definitely still use Ascendo subs.
 
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LL21

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Let me provide my perspective of bass after having owned more brands than I can count and having calibrated many other rooms over the past 30 years. I have categorized three "levels" of bass reproduction.

Level I: A single capable sub properly placed and with some level of EQ, - and driven at "reasonable levels" - will allow the listener to HEAR the frequencies down to 20Hz or so - and maybe with room gain, lower than that;

Level II: Multiple subs (the number of which would be dictated by the cubic footage of the listening space) allows the listener to begin to "EXPERIENCE" the bass, in addition to "HEARING" the bass. Which was my mode until 10 months ago. By that I mean, there are enough QUALITY subs to move enough air to begin to "activate" the room walls or floor or furniture or all of the above. More noticeable on movies but depending on the music, noticeable on it as well. Some music from, for example, Bella Fleck would certainly qualify but if you want to listen to a FUN piece of music and have access to Apple Music, try the cut shown in the image below (and if you happen to have an Atmos capable system, this cut is also a very fun Atmos using all of the speakers in your room);

Level III: Until I first heard an all Ascendo sub system, I had never experienced this level of bass. This level requires a huge amount of air displacement [combination of woofer size and linear displacement e.g. X-max] AND amps with lots of quality power and subs capable of the INSTANTANEOUS compression of all of the air in the room. Certainly the Ascendos do that and with enough capable subs, some combination of Harbottle subs MAY be able to do it as well. (I hope to find out soon). No other room I have been in, regardless of room size and numbers or brand of subs, has been able to pull this off. It really does take listening to a different level.

But as noted in my initial post, the beauty of these subs is the combination of the "Level III" performance but also their ability to enable the listener to "hear" bass that is typically hidden in most systems. I'm not a subwoofer designer so can't tell you how that happens, but it does.

View attachment 123416

I've listened to 2 channel music for probably close 30 years using a sub, even when I had full range speakers capable of reaching the lowest octaves. In the typical 2 channel room, the speakers are place somewhere in the front part of the room away from both the front wall and side walls. That is almost ALWAYS not the optimum place in the room to get all of the best bass possible, so separate subs placed in the optimum location has the ability to provide the most optimum sound - ASSUMING the integration of the subs to the mains is done properly. In your specific case, and assuming sealed Ascendo subs, integration will be a lot more complex given the most likely totally different phase response between the subs and your Wilson speakers, which I think are a ported design.

I will be honest and say that if I ONLY listened to music in my room, and not movies, I probably would not have invested the equivalent of the price of a really nice car with my specific sub combination - though I would definitely still use Ascendo subs.
Thank you! That is the very first true explication of what happens when you step WAY up in air displacement in a domestic environment. For me, until this discussion, it was more my own personal prognostication rather than speaking with someone who has done it. I know of only a few people who have the bass capability to move that much air, and even fewer who actually upgraded to it and so know the difference between 'with' and 'without'.

In many respects, your experience reflects a greater change than I had anticipated. Having Funk Audio (also associated with Harbottle as far as I can tell on the Funk Audio website) dual 24" opposing cones with 3.5+ inches p-to-p excursion equates to perhaps 1 Ascendo 32" in terms of purely mathematical air displacement...but you ALSO have 4 x 18" subs. So I am not even getting to that level even with the Funk...but nevertheless, it would be far greater than the single 18" Velodyne we have now which is excellent but limited.

Will give that album a try!
 
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audioguy

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Near Atlanta, GA but not too near!
Thank you! That is the very first true explication of what happens when you step WAY up in air displacement in a domestic environment. For me, until this discussion, it was more my own personal prognostication rather than speaking with someone who has done it. I know of only a few people who have the bass capability to move that much air, and even fewer who actually upgraded to it and so know the difference between 'with' and 'without'.

In many respects, your experience reflects a greater change than I had anticipated. Having Funk Audio (also associated with Harbottle as far as I can tell on the Funk Audio website) dual 24" opposing cones with 3.5+ inches p-to-p excursion equates to perhaps 1 Ascendo 32" in terms of purely mathematical air displacement...but you ALSO have 4 x 18" subs. So I am not even getting to that level even with the Funk...but nevertheless, it would be far greater than the single 18" Velodyne we have now which is excellent but limited.

Will give that album a try!
While the Ascendo 32 will play the same FR as any of their smaller subs, when listening to it alone, it lacks the mid/upper bass slam that is possible with smaller subs and when playing the 4 18's alone, it lack the bottom octave weight/heft of the 32, so they are very complementary. Ascendo calls the subs used for the mid/upper bass "kick subs". The Harbottle 24's may be designed differently so that only multiple 24's might get you the same place. Your room size (cubic feet) must be part of the equation to determine if dual 24's are sufficient to reach "Level III".
 

LL21

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While the Ascendo 32 will play the same FR as any of their smaller subs, when listening to it alone, it lacks the mid/upper bass slam that is possible with smaller subs and when playing the 4 18's alone, it lack the bottom octave weight/heft of the 32, so they are very complementary. Ascendo calls the subs used for the mid/upper bass "kick subs". The Harbottle 24's may be designed differently so that only multiple 24's might get you the same place. Your room size (cubic feet) must be part of the equation to determine if dual 24's are sufficient to reach "Level III".
Thank you!!! Very good to know. To your exact point about sub 40hz bass vs upper slam/snap bass:

The current idea is to focus on sub-40hz performance in order to create that sense of venue, air, symphonic hall, foundation. The Wilsons with and without the [very good] Velodyne DD18+ with its servo system is already illustrative of that sense. You shut off the sub during a simple jazz ensemble recorded in a venue...the the venue 'snaps back' in between the speakers with the more traditional 'soundstage in front and in back. Turn the sub back on...and you are transported INTO the venue. That front/back soundstage is suddenly placed back within the entire venue and you are sitting in it. Disconcerting when you mute the sub actually.

Nevertheless...I think the Velodyne provides a good quality hint rather than a full on, full all-out rendition of the sense of space and venue.

We have NOT focused on the upper bass elements. Something to consider. In fact

- The Funk dual 18" is apparently by design excellent from 10hz to 150 hz and beyond
- By contrast the Funk dual 24" is apparently by design optimal for sub-40hz performance BUT at that sub-40hz, it is equal to SIX of the dual-18 subs so if we really want to focus on sub40hz, then it is probably the better choice by far

I spoke with an audio engineer who designs Front-Loaded Horns (big ones) and he said the Funk dual-18 is the closest he has ever heard to front loaded horn subs and highly recommended it...particularly given that it is basically a 25" cube which is vastly more compact than a front loaded horn.

QUESTION
- How much of your sub design is for the sub-40hz and how much for the 80-120hz and above range? I had not thought I would want to 'risk' playing around with that frequency range and mess around with the Wilsons at that much more audible/discernable range.
 

audioguy

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Near Atlanta, GA but not too near!
Thank you!!! Very good to know. To your exact point about sub 40hz bass vs upper slam/snap bass:

The current idea is to focus on sub-40hz performance in order to create that sense of venue, air, symphonic hall, foundation. The Wilsons with and without the [very good] Velodyne DD18+ with its servo system is already illustrative of that sense. You shut off the sub during a simple jazz ensemble recorded in a venue...the the venue 'snaps back' in between the speakers with the more traditional 'soundstage in front and in back. Turn the sub back on...and you are transported INTO the venue. That front/back soundstage is suddenly placed back within the entire venue and you are sitting in it. Disconcerting when you mute the sub actually.

Nevertheless...I think the Velodyne provides a good quality hint rather than a full on, full all-out rendition of the sense of space and venue.

We have NOT focused on the upper bass elements. Something to consider. In fact

- The Funk dual 18" is apparently by design excellent from 10hz to 150 hz and beyond
- By contrast the Funk dual 24" is apparently by design optimal for sub-40hz performance BUT at that sub-40hz, it is equal to SIX of the dual-18 subs so if we really want to focus on sub40hz, then it is probably the better choice by far

I spoke with an audio engineer who designs Front-Loaded Horns (big ones) and he said the Funk dual-18 is the closest he has ever heard to front loaded horn subs and highly recommended it...particularly given that it is basically a 25" cube which is vastly more compact than a front loaded horn.

QUESTION
- How much of your sub design is for the sub-40hz and how much for the 80-120hz and above range? I had not thought I would want to 'risk' playing around with that frequency range and mess around with the Wilsons at that much more audible/discernable range.
Prior to owning my current subs, mid/upper bass was far more important to me than south of 40Hz - BUT, the south of 40Hz part is what "enlarges" the listening venue AND is with my current subs, what has become more audible during listening sessions.

If you are happy with what the Wilsons do in the mid/upper bass region, then I would focus on the south of 40Hz region. And while I am not suggesting there is anything wrong with Velodyne subs, the difference between that sub and the anything you get from Funk/Harbottle will be night and day - not even close. I've heard an older model 18" from Funk (4.5 years ago) and it was, at the time, the best 18" I had ever heard. I have no doubt the newer models are even better.
 

LL21

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Prior to owning my current subs, mid/upper bass was far more important to me than south of 40Hz - BUT, the south of 40Hz part is what "enlarges" the listening venue AND is with my current subs, what has become more audible during listening sessions.

If you are happy with what the Wilsons do in the mid/upper bass region, then I would focus on the south of 40Hz region. And while I am not suggesting there is anything wrong with Velodyne subs, the difference between that sub and the anything you get from Funk/Harbottle will be night and day - not even close. I've heard an older model 18" from Funk (4.5 years ago) and it was, at the time, the best 18" I had ever heard. I have no doubt the newer models are even better.
Once again, thank you very much for taking the time to share your insights! This is extraordinarily helpful because very few people spend a lot of time focusing on this area of audio, whereas for me, it has always been a must have...and as the system has continued to advance, then this area is now 'behind'. And if anything, I would love to think the big Funks would outlive the XLFs and carry on well beyond to the next level of speakers someday whatever those might be.

I just heard about someone espousing the virtues of an Avantgarde G3 Trio system...but it was not just AG G3 with dual horns...the system ALSO had a pair of REL 32 Anniversary subs which I imagine were about driving the very low end (probably sub-40hz).

I just spoke with Nathan over the weekend and will be continuing that line of thought. This discussion have been very very helpful in that regard.
 

audioguy

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Near Atlanta, GA but not too near!
Once again, thank you very much for taking the time to share your insights! This is extraordinarily helpful because very few people spend a lot of time focusing on this area of audio, whereas for me, it has always been a must have...and as the system has continued to advance, then this area is now 'behind'. And if anything, I would love to think the big Funks would outlive the XLFs and carry on well beyond to the next level of speakers someday whatever those might be.

I just heard about someone espousing the virtues of an Avantgarde G3 Trio system...but it was not just AG G3 with dual horns...the system ALSO had a pair of REL 32 Anniversary subs which I imagine were about driving the very low end (probably sub-40hz).

I just spoke with Nathan over the weekend and will be continuing that line of thought. This discussion have been very very helpful in that regard.
The REL 32 may be an outstanding sub, but, assuming two of them and depending on room size, they may only creep into the Level II range. A 15" driver is still a 15" driver and physics still apply. (They are, however, really cool looking - and REL has made great subs for a long time).

That said, most pure 2 channel guys I know aren't about bombastic bass, even clean bombastic bass, so these subs might be ideal for many, and if the room isn't too large, they may be the perfect solution for Level II bass.
 
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LL21

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The REL 32 may be an outstanding sub, but, assuming two of them and depending on room size, they may only creep into the Level II range. A 15" driver is still a 15" driver and physics still apply. (They are, however, really cool looking - and REL has made great subs for a long time).

That said, most pure 2 channel guys I know aren't about bombastic bass, even clean bombastic bass, so these subs might be ideal for many, and if the room isn't too large, they may be the perfect solution for Level II bass.
Thank you and generally agree with you. Particularly about 2-channel and deep bass.

To be fair, given the simple math about how much air you are displacing, I am not sure I would even qualify for Level III bass even with the equivalent of 6 DD18+s optimized for sub-40hz performance! Would love to experience Level III!
 
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audioguy

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Level III bass is more about the entire spectrum, not just one frequency range. My 32 by itself won't do it nor will the 18's by themselves. As I noted previously, I had eight very capable 18s in my 3400 cf room, and while they sounded great, they mostly just peformed at a great Level II (in fact so much so, that I had to reduce the output below 50Hz via a target curve).
 
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ajant

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My big problem is that my otherwise wonderful custom built speakers only go down to 70Hz. So, which if any of these subs would make the audio sound colored or incoherent with having to cross the high up?
 

Zeotrope

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Just got my custom Funk Elite dual 12”. Wanted something fast (to keep up with my horns) and that could fit in a small space, and Nathan came through.
This has the new 18.2 Elite driver that can has low distortion and near flat response to just beyond 200Hz.

My horns are almost flat to 20Hz believe it or not (active transmission line sub) but it’s not a good idea to feel LFE and surround bass to the main channels, and that’s what the Funk is for.
 

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pweg

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Just got my custom Funk Elite dual 12”. Wanted something fast (to keep up with my horns) and that could fit in a small space, and Nathan came through.
This has the new 18.2 Elite driver that can has low distortion and near flat response to just beyond 200Hz.

My horns are almost flat to 20Hz believe it or not (active transmission line sub) but it’s not a good idea to feel LFE and surround bass to the main channels, and that’s what the Funk is for.
Yes the elite is something special.
 
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LL21

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I had a funk 18 and then this last Tuesday replaced it with a funk elite dual 18 with outboard amplifier. It’s extraordinary.
Congrats! Would love to know more about how exactly it has surpassed your earlier single-18" Funk! Definitely on my short list -- a pair of Funk 18.2 subs.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
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Just got my custom Funk Elite dual 12”. Wanted something fast (to keep up with my horns) and that could fit in a small space, and Nathan came through.
This has the new 18.2 Elite driver that can has low distortion and near flat response to just beyond 200Hz.

My horns are almost flat to 20Hz believe it or not (active transmission line sub) but it’s not a good idea to feel LFE and surround bass to the main channels, and that’s what the Funk is for.
Congrats! would love to know more about what has happened to your overall sound when the Funk got dialed in. Very very interested in dual Funk 18.2 subs.
 

Zeotrope

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Congrats! would love to know more about what has happened to your overall sound when the Funk got dialed in. Very very interested in dual Funk 18.2 subs.
Thanks. It's just after 1 night, but the sound from the main horns (L/R channels) has a new sense of "depth". It's hard to describe, it's almost like there is more headroom. Interestingly, I have not changed the L/R channel signal at all. The Funk sub only plays the LFE track and bass below 120Hz from the surround channels, so I was not expecting any change to the L/R channels.
 

pweg

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Congrats! Would love to know more about how exactly it has surpassed your earlier single-18" Funk! Definitely on my short list -- a pair of Funk 18.2 subs.
its a bit like Audioguy above describes ..... My single funk 18 was a strong level 2 and outclassed the magico, rhythmic and marten subs i had before that. Moving to the 18.2 elite, we are stepping into level three territory. The room pressurises. The concrete floor feels like it is moving. It's simply awesome.
 

LL21

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Fantastic, PWEG and Zeotrope...thank you both. Very helpful.

My sense is that I am trending back away from a single sub, dual-opposing 24" despite its superior sub 40hz performance...mainly because the 18.2 is sensational in any event PLUS 2 of them gives far greater flexibility in the future in terms of physical set up/lay out with 2 units instead of 1 larger one...plus additionally, the 18.2s outperform the 24.2 in terms of 40hz-100hz performance.
 
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