What sampling / bit rate would equal vinyl?

[Orb]

Thanks, Vincent. I wonder what causes the horizontal striations on the pictures magnified 500 times and 1000 times. And also wonder if these striations can be picked up by the stylus, and if they have the same effect as dither added in digital.......

Also want to say thanks as well.
What would had been nice is if they examined a recognised pristine LP (meaning it is known to come from the 1st made stamper is one of the very 1st pressed vinyl LPs, combined with being one of the better compound LPs), compared to a mass produced general US pressed LP where the stamper has begun deteriating (starts after 1000 pressings) and are not left to cool for long enough or not pressed at right temperature-duration or cheaper vinyl compound.
People would be surprised with the difference, and even with the vinyl as briefly emphasised in my quote relating to issues around CD-4 LP, and can be read from various articles on those who were engineers involved in the whole lacquer-plating-pressing process along with vinyl compounds.

Another point, shame the CD view is not magnified even more, it is like looking at the LP at say 100x to 200x for structure detail, still this points that the pits on the CD are truly miniscule in comparison, though this is more likely a challenge for the CD mechanism-reading and servo code.
If in doubt that it can vary, one of the magazines examined both a standard and gold comparable CD (Japanese import) that were of the same recording but with the gold mastered with 1db-ish more loudness; the result was that the gold CD had 50% less read related issues and this surprised them.
Of course this does not mean it results in audio difference and the magazine emphasised that point, but it does show it is not error proof.
Again to stress both measurements were technically within redbook tolerances, so please take this more from an engineering consideration in the context of the above discussion - that being variations are possible but not seen with the level of detail provided with the CD image, and that while the fluctuation may be large for a vinyl LP its architecture/structure is nowhere as miniscule as that of CD.

Cheers
Orb

 

[muralman1]

I found an electron microscopic image of a CD and it contains various lengths of pits in line with various, "Land lengths." There seems to be no easily seen repetitions. They form infinitely variables. These pits and land lengths are far cleaner, and denser that that of a cut LP. Digital - not the way I understand it.

 

[DonH50]

Look at a picture of the signal coming off a disc drive's head; it ultimately becomes a 1 or a 0, but it starts out looking like noise.

 

[arnyk]

Have a look: http://reckon.posterous.com/vinyl-record-grooves-under-electron-microscop

I've been looking at picutres like that for over 30 years. Leave out the CD pixture and now its more like 45 years.

Are you supporting my claim that you would have to be blind to not see the difference? if so, thanks!

 

[arnyk]

Thanks, Vincent. I wonder what causes the horizontal striations on the pictures magnified 500 times and 1000 times. And also wonder if these striations can be picked up by the stylus, and if they have the same effect as dither added in digital.......

There are several different striations, There are the ones on the surface that the grove is cut into, and there are the ones in the groove.

The striations on the surface trace back to the original lacquer disk that the grooves were cut into. Frankly their presence surprises me because they indicate some machining or finishing operations that I can easily see how to avoid them. They suggest that the lacquer was pressed with a metal mold that was polished. The lines were made by the fine abrasive used for polishing.

The striations in the groove would be related to the the usual small undulations one sees in audio signals. The cutting stylus has a sharp cutting edge and can easily create variations in the groove wall that are too small to track with a rounded or eliptical stylus with any degree of accuracy. It is well known that accurately tracking a LP groove above 10-12 KHz is fraught with difficulty. If you overcome the usual problems with gross mistracking, the signal you get back still has considerable inherent nonlinear distortion because of the differences between the sharp cutting tool and the rounded playback tool.

 

[muralman1]

Look at a picture of the signal coming off a disc drive's head; it ultimately becomes a 1 or a 0, but it starts out looking like noise.

Here is a look at a CD: http://www.denniskunkel.com/DK/Miscellaneous/97108C.html

I am sure it is coded, but not in the usual computer model. A quote from 6moons:

"While reading a CD, a raging stream of pits of variable lengths whirs past the laser reader whose response currents in the light diodes registering the reflections from the CD are completely analog in nature. Each time a pit transitions to a land or vice versa, it gets interpreted as a digital 1. Each time—here’s that clock again—a clock tick registers no transition, a 0 is read. The CD thus contains only symbolic zeros and not singular 1s per se (nor true 0s for that matter)."

 

[FrantzM]

m'man

I am not sure I get your point. Under electro microscopy, things as seemingly smooth as a glass pane shows up as a the rocky mountains with peaks and valleys ...

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

6moons is one of the last sources I'd turn to for any kind of technical analysis.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

Efm, circ

Digital data storing in CD is not a simple system.

You can find information about the CD coding system here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-to-fourteen_modulation
and code correction at :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-interleaved_Reed-Solomon_coding

 

[muralman1]

PS Audio are the ones who discovered the variable pit, and land. They had to convert that, the best they could to a 1' and 0's. As far as 6moons goes, I think it is the best review site. They sure got my amp and preamp right on the money.

 

[Vincent Kars]

A simple explanation of pits and lands: http://www.laesieworks.com/digicom/Storage_CD.html

 

[muralman1]

What's more, there is no audible distortion of any kind on my straight from the cd recording through an NOS DAC. It's all there, engineers should be looking to ways to mine all the information on the disc as 47 Lab did.

 

[amirm]

PS Audio are the ones who discovered the variable pit, and land. They had to convert that, the best they could to a 1' and 0's.

You mean based on their product which reads the entire CD into memory and then plays it from there? If so, they didn't discover anything. The fact that time variations are telegraphed through the system to output had been a known thing that audiophile CD players try to remedy.

 

[Old Listener]

Here is a look at a CD: http://www.denniskunkel.com/DK/Miscellaneous/97108C.html

I am sure it is coded, but not in the usual computer model. A quote from 6moons:

"While reading a CD, a raging stream of pits of variable lengths whirs past the laser reader whose response currents in the light diodes registering the reflections from the CD are completely analog in nature. Each time a pit transitions to a land or vice versa, it gets interpreted as a digital 1. Each time—here’s that clock again—a clock tick registers no transition, a 0 is read. The CD thus contains only symbolic zeros and not singular 1s per se (nor true 0s for that matter)."

This is lovely purple prose. For a thorough explanation of the technology involved in reading digital data from an audio CD, you might look at chapter 8 and 9 of "Principles of Digital Audio, Fifth Edition" by Ken Pohlmann.

Your quote relates pits to digital zeros and ones. It is important to recognize that those zeros and ones are not the final digital data going into a DAC. A mild paraphrase of Pohlmann: That raw digital data goes through a Cross-Interleave Reed-Solomon Code circuit which uses redundancy to reduce the raw error rate. ...The output from that process is further processed to recover subcode information. Then you have the zeros and ones that represent the audio stream.

The electrical signal from the reading circuit is several stages away from the digital data that would go into a DAC chip.

In another post you said

"PS Audio are the ones who discovered the variable pit, and land. They had to convert that, the best they could to a 1' and 0's."

So you think that all the engineers who worked on the technology for 30 years didn't understand the nature of the pits and lands on a manufactured CD?

"What's more, there is no audible distortion of any kind on my straight from the cd recording through an NOS DAC. It's all there, engineers should be looking to ways to mine all the information on the disc as 47 Lab did."

We understand your assertion that your gear is perfect in every way.

Bill

 

[muralman1]

You mean based on their product which reads the entire CD into memory and then plays it from there? If so, they didn't discover anything. The fact that time variations are telegraphed through the system to output had been a known thing that audiophile CD players try to remedy.

I will have to go back and read the whole thing again. From my reading the PS engineer was saying it took years to "decipher" the pits and lands into binary signals. Just look at the number of chips the transport runs the info through.

That is why I shied away from the Perfectwave. I spent the same money on 47 Lab and never looked back.

 

[FrantzM]

m'man

It takes only a few minutes for the lowly CD-ROM drive to decipher the same in your PC ... How to decipher such as been known as long as CD has been around... in all cases there will be a lot of IC Chips in there ... Even in you 47 Lab NOS DAC or transport ...

 

[muralman1]

m'man

It takes only a few minutes for the lowly CD-ROM drive to decipher the same in your PC ... How to decipher such as been known as long as CD has been around... in all cases there will be a lot of IC Chips in there ... Even in you 47 Lab NOS DAC or transport ...

2

 

[FrantzM]

let me get this straight this product has only 2 IC (Integrated Circuits) in it ? Two !?

 

[DonH50]

Highly-integrated chips have been around a while...

I would bet that does not include the laser receiver, however, and I wonder if there is one or more in the power supply.

 

[FrantzM]

Highly-integrated chips have been around a while...

I would bet that does not include the laser receiver, however, and I wonder if there is one or more in the power supply.

I know they have been.... but only two ICs in a DAC or a Transport ... TWO ICs !?!?