What's Best in Mid-Tier Cables

[A-Line]

Answered my question? No, because you didn’t address the issues I raised. But your response did confirm/support my original point.

So you're saying that it's not possible to determine by casual observation, or any other method, if someone is using interconnects as a tone control(s)?

I did state at the end that I was using my opinions in my comments. For some reason you interrupted them as facts vs opinions.

Are you a troll looking for a argument?

 

[Cellcbern]

So you're saying that it's not possible to determine by casual observation, or any other method, if someone is using interconnects as a tone control(s)?

I did state at the end that I was using my opinions in my comments. For some reason you interrupted them as facts vs opinions.

Are you a troll looking for a argument?

That's not what I said (I thought I was clear). But since you mention it, no - it is not possible to determine if someone is using interconnects (or power cables, or speaker cables) in their system to tune the sound except by asking them if they are. Not that there's anything wrong with using component/cable synergy to optimize system sound.

Not looking for an argument. Just reacting to the idea, which comes up frequently at WBF (including in your original post), that you can distinguish the sound of a component from the sound of the cables which are necessary in order to listen to it, and that somehow components are "neutral" and cables act as tone controls, varying the sound from that "neutrality". I've already explained why that is flawed thinking.

 

[A-Line]

That's not what I said (I thought I was clear). But since you mention it, no - it is not possible to determine if someone is using interconnects (or power cables, or speaker cables) in their system to tune the sound except by asking them if they are.

Are you stating a fact or are you giving a opinion? If you're staying a fact then you must prove that fact, otherwise it's just your opinion.

 

[Cellcbern]

Are you stating a fact or are you giving a opinion? If you're staying a fact then you must prove that fact, otherwise it's just your opinion.

It is a fact that you can't listen to a component without cables (perhaps there is some battery powered, wireless device that is the exception), which means you can't A-B-A compare a component with and without cables to determine the level of neutrality and other sound quality parameters of the component by itself. It follows factually that if you must use cables to listen to a component the only thing it is possible to hear is the interaction between components and cables.

 

[A-Line]

It is a fact that you can't listen to a component without cables (perhaps there is some battery powered, wireless device that is the exception), which means you can't A-B-A compare a component with and without cables to determine the level of neutrality and other sound quality parameters of the component by itself. It follows factually that if you must use cables to listen to a component the only thing it is possible to hear is the interaction between components and cables.

My topic was A/B comparison of interconnects only, both using the exact same components except IC's from the source to my headphone energizer was different. It's really simple: it will either sound better or it won't.

If you've ever been to a eye doctor (opthalmologist) for prescription eye glasses then you'll be familiar with the phrase: "does this look better than this?",while using a refractor device with many lenses for comparisons.

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill in this instance. Another cable discussion got closed recently here due to similar trolling. Ron has a nice thread going on here so don't ruin it...

Just my opinions.

 

[Cellcbern]

My topic was A/B comparison of interconnects only, both using the exact same components except IC's from the source to my headphone energizer was different. It's really simple: it will either sound better or it won't.

If you've ever been to a eye doctor (opthalmologist) for prescription eye glasses then you'll be familiar with the phrase: "does this look better than this?",while using a refractor device with many lenses for comparisons.

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill in this instance. Another cable discussion got closed recently here due to similar trolling. Ron has a nice thread going on here so don't ruin it...

Just my opinions.

Just combating folly when I encounter it.

 

[DasguteOhr]

For any folks who might be musing upon flat copper ribbon speaker cables I would recommend considering these: https://magnancables.wordpress.com/products/signature-speaker-cables/

Perhaps a little overlooked somewhat in todays busy modern cable market place , however if looking for a weighty , tonally dense presentation with no tipped up upper octaves they perform rather well.

The same here phantastic cables silver or copper

High-End Foil / Ribbon Speaker Cable | SOLIDCOREAUDIO

♫ This speaker cable opens new sound dimensions. By an outstanding plug- & foil concept it achieves absolutely direct signal transmission.

www.solidcoreaudio.com

for people who love diy .... cheaper

DIY and Tuning High-End Audio Cables | SOLIDCOREAUDIO

✂ DIYer who like to do it yourself, will find the basic ingredients for selfmade high-end audio cables here.

www.solidcoreaudio.com

 

[A-Line]

Here you go: #17504 10B1
Had to remove a cord to properly ID it.

That power cord is the standard power cord used by Crimson Electronics for their factory issue.
I checked a site in the USA and it sells for around $9.50 each. Crimson Electronics is UK based.

 

[Cellcbern]

The same here phantastic cables silver or copper

High-End Foil / Ribbon Speaker Cable | SOLIDCOREAUDIO

♫ This speaker cable opens new sound dimensions. By an outstanding plug- & foil concept it achieves absolutely direct signal transmission.

www.solidcoreaudio.com

for people who love diy .... cheaper

DIY and Tuning High-End Audio Cables | SOLIDCOREAUDIO

✂ DIYer who like to do it yourself, will find the basic ingredients for selfmade high-end audio cables here.

www.solidcoreaudio.com

Been using the flat copper ribbon Verastarr Grand Illusion II speaker cables (no longer in production but a great value used if you can find them) for almost a decade. They are still competitive with current top tier cables.

FYI: https://www.dagogo.com/verastarr-gr...nnects-speaker-wire-and-power-cords-review/2/

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Been using the flat copper ribbon Verastarr Grand Illusion II speaker cables (no longer in production but a great value used if you can find them) for almost a decade. They are still competitive with current top tier cables.

FYI: https://www.dagogo.com/verastarr-gr...nnects-speaker-wire-and-power-cords-review/2/

The Townshend Isolda speaker cables are awesome and not that blasted expensive. https://www.townshendaudio.com/isolda-speaker-cables/
$700.00 US for 2M.

 

[AudioHR]

Over the years I have tried a variety of audiophile cables with different systems, done A/B/A testing, and reviewed several. Among those are: Audioquest, FMS, Nordost, Kimber, a bunch from Shunyata, Goertz, Silver Audio (phono), Siltech (phono), Kondo (phono) LessLoss and others. They all bring something to the table that differentiates them from their competitors and each brand has its own talking points. Imo, the character of a cable or cable brand is best discovered by using a full loom of the same model -- that does not mean to use or not use a loom, but it is easier to discern what the cable is doing versus evaluating a cable among a mix of different brands.

My conclusion about audiophile cables is they tend to be somewhat gear specific, that is certain brands of cables work better with certain brands of components than other brands. My preference is for cables that are less invasive to the character of your components. If I need a cable to correct or compensate for a component, I likely have the wrong component.

It would make sense that cables are gear specific! Some cables complement certain components more than others. I would also agree with the premise that cables should be as least invasive as possible.

 

[Holmz]

It is a fact that you can't listen to a component without cables (perhaps there is some battery powered, wireless device that is the exception), which means you can't A-B-A compare a component with and without cables to determine the level of neutrality and other sound quality parameters of the component by itself. It follows factually that if you must use cables to listen to a component the only thing it is possible to hear is the interaction between components and cables.

^in general yeah^

For ICs, then as the capacitance and inductance goes to zero, then the cable’s effects go to zero.
For speaker cables then add in resistance.
For both, then as cable goes from a long length towards zero, then the effects go towards zero.
It is certainly easier for me to be talked into mono blocks and short cables, then a stereo amp and 10 foot + long speaker cables.

Generally though, the relationship between consumers and manufactures/sellers, appears somewhat co-dependant.
One set claims that the cables make a world of difference, and the other side needs to believe them.

I don’t even know where to start with power cables… After hundreds of yards from the local transformer to the house, the last couple of feet being a problem seems a stretch.
If there is some magic happening in the last few feet, then why not just shove a couple of feet of the stuff into chassis?

All that said, I usually have some of the low cost cables hanging around.
Most of the IC failures were with low cost ables, and to be able to swap something out is handy.

However most of the time I just make my own ICs to get the length right, and use good connectors and wire..

Hi everyone, I've had WyWire Silver cabling for 10 years and find it with good tonal density and resolution but pretty neutral - it doesn't highlight certain areas of the frequency spectrum which I've found most cables do. Its a pretty simple design with copper litz strands and air dialetric. I tried WyWires Platinum speaker cables during the pandemic which were higher in resolution, but defined the image into "L, C, R" and it was kind of strange spatially.

I've also tried Kubala-Sosna Emotion/Elation on occasion from my dealer (mid range centric/forward/closed in), Cardas Clear Beyond (not as warm as former Cardas, but has a pleasantville smooth sound on everything), and Audience Au24SX (very nice tone that grabs you at first, but then seems too forward and not neutral).

So I am looking at cables in the ~$3k range which (unfortunately or not) is the mid-tier of cabling these days. Here are some options I'm considering:

1. Clarus
2. Argento/Organic Audio
3. Hijiri

I'd like some thoughts on these or others that folks prefer - again, I'm really in the more neutral cable camp with nice resolution. But something that isn't dead analytical. I also don't want network cables.

Why not just stick with the WyWire Silvers?
Linz design, and air dielectric, are both pretty solid towards achieving good measured specs.

 

[Cellcbern]

It would make sense that cables are gear specific! Some cables complement certain components more than others. I would also agree with the premise that cables should be as least invasive as possible.

Don’t know why this nonsense persists. It is not possible to know whether or not a cable or cables are more or less “invasive” with regard to the sound of a component/components because it is not possible to listen to a component by itself or establish its sound without the interaction with/influence of multiple cables. All that it is possible to do is try different cables and pick the combination that sounds best to you with your components, which is fine. Why isn’t that enough? Why do people need to pretend that there are “neutral” components whose neutrality is compromised by cables?

 

[gleeds]

Been using the flat copper ribbon Verastarr Grand Illusion II speaker cables (no longer in production but a great value used if you can find them) for almost a decade. They are still competitive with current top tier cables.

FYI: https://www.dagogo.com/verastarr-gr...nnects-speaker-wire-and-power-cords-review/2/

Silversmith Fidelum ribbon cables are among the best values in high-end audio for speaker cables. I have listened to them extensively on Tidal G2 speakers (80k) with our WestminsterLab amplifiers, and they were outstanding. Jeff, the owner of Silversmith, is a gentleman and a pleasure to do business with. Recommendations are helpful, but one must always try a speaker cable in their own system to know.

FIDELIUM SPEAKER & INTERCONNECT CABLES. Thin foil (ribbon) design derived from electromagnetic wave and waveguide physics to minimize skin-effect phase errors. The skin effect properties of FIDELIUM are up to 33 times superior to copper or silver.

FIDELIUM’s low mass, ultra thin foil (ribbon) speaker cable and interconnect cable design is derived from electromagnetic wave and waveguide physics equations that describe skin effect induced phase errors and group delay and how to eliminate or minimize them. The skin effect characteristics of...

silversmithaudio.com

 

[AudioHR]

Don’t know why this nonsense persists. It is not possible to know whether or not a cable or cables are more or less “invasive” with regard to the sound of a component/components because it is not possible to listen to a component by itself or establish its sound without the interaction with/influence of multiple cables. All that it is possible to do is try different cables and pick the combination that sounds best to you with your components, which is fine. Why isn’t that enough?

Hmmm.....you have repeated this a few times, your position is clear. Actually you make a good point on not being able to listen to a component without wire and therefore we don't know exactly what its own sound is.

You see to be hung up on the term invasive. Personally I see it this way. If I perceive a selection of music to sound realistic (based on say what I heard at live performance) on my system I can use this as a baseline. So invasive to me would be adding a cable or anything else that drastically changes what I hear as realistic. Of course this circles back to personal preferences and listening experience.

So like you say when I try different cables I do try and find cables that complement my system and make it sound best to me.

I think amongst experienced listeners there would be a consensus on which cables sounds natural, realistic and right in a particular system. However preferences vary so it's quite likely that even if we were listening to the same familiar system we would not ultimately agree on what cable sounds best to each of us.

 

[Cellcbern]

Hmmm.....you have repeated this a few times, your position is clear. Actually you make a good point on not being able to listen to a component without wire and therefore we don't know exactly what its own sound is.

You see to be hung up on the term invasive. Personally I see it this way. If I perceive a selection of music to sound realistic (based on say what I heard at live performance) on my system I can use this as a baseline. So invasive to me would be adding a cable or anything else that drastically changes what I hear as realistic. Of course this circles back to personal preferences and listening experience.

So like you say when I try different cables I do try and find cables that complement my system and make it sound best to me.

I think amongst experienced listeners there would be a consensus on which cables sounds natural, realistic and right in a particular system. However preferences vary so it's quite likely that even if we were listening to the same familiar system we would not ultimately agree on what cable sounds best to each of us.

Agree-the "baseline" sound is your system with the cables you have, presumably because you like their sound. When you substitute a new cable you compare its impact on your system to this baseline sound. After decades of group listening to systems with audiophile colleagues/club members consensus might not have been achieved but there has typically been broad agreement as to which cables sound "natural, realistic, and right" in a particular system.

 

[Cellcbern]

^in general yeah^

For ICs, then as the capacitance and inductance goes to zero, then the cable’s effects go to zero.
For speaker cables then add in resistance.
For both, then as cable goes from a long length towards zero, then the effects go towards zero.
It is certainly easier for me to be talked into mono blocks and short cables, then a stereo amp and 10 foot + long speaker cables.

Generally though, the relationship between consumers and manufactures/sellers, appears somewhat co-dependant.
One set claims that the cables make a world of difference, and the other side needs to believe them.

I don’t even know where to start with power cables… After hundreds of yards from the local transformer to the house, the last couple of feet being a problem seems a stretch.
If there is some magic happening in the last few feet, then why not just shove a couple of feet of the stuff into chassis?

All that said, I usually have some of the low cost cables hanging around.
Most of the IC failures were with low cost ables, and to be able to swap something out is handy.

However most of the time I just make my own ICs to get the length right, and use good connectors and wire..



Why not just stick with the WyWire Silvers?
Linz design, and air dielectric, are both pretty solid towards achieving good measured specs.

In my experience power cables make the biggest difference in sound quality. Here (link below) is an explanation why:

WHY POWER CABLES MAKE A DIFFERENCE | Galen Carol Audio | Galen Carol Audio

Why power cables make an audible difference

www.gcaudio.com

 

[Holmz]

In my experience power cables make the biggest difference in sound quality. Here (link below) is an explanation why:

WHY POWER CABLES MAKE A DIFFERENCE | Galen Carol Audio | Galen Carol Audio

Why power cables make an audible difference

www.gcaudio.com

I am not sure if it is WHY, How, or factoids…

But I am still kind of stuck, the article mentioned the dielectric as being important, and I can see that with ICs and Speaker cables.
However a power cable is just about at DC, and the skin depth at 50Hz is ~10mm, and maybe 8mm for 60 Hz.
(At least if we ignore the noise on the AC, then it is at 50-60 Hz, and if we ignore flat topped sine waves from SMPS, etc.)

Then the drift rate of the bulk electric current is astonishingly low… like inches per hour.
I suppose there are the random motions of individual electrons, that can do something at a grain boundary, but en masse, not much is happening in a current flow sense.
And the article also talks about the conductor material not making a huge difference.

Things are somewhat different at the higher frequencies of ICs and speaker cables carrying music, as the field is mostly carrying (0r pushing) the electrons around. So at DC current flow makes sense, and as we get up in AC frequencies then the magic is happening at the surface of the wire and field extending inside the dielectric.

The article talks about capacitance, and chokes/coils/ferrite - and also reflections - which is somewhat reminiscent of VSWR.

As they also talk about the diodes inside of a components power supply, and the switching transceints being reflected, it seems like a device by device crapshoot as to whether a specific cable-A would be helpful over some other specific cable-B.

 

[ssfas]

My cables will be superior in this price range, and I have demos to try out.

For ICs, my DSR and D4 are <$3k and will be comparable to anything at any price range. My UPOCC silver SCs are much more expensive but less than many brands. In a lower price range my UPOCC copper ribbon cables are as good as it gets, and are objectively superior in terms of electrical properties to almost everything else. With the ribbon shape I can achieve very low inductance without excessive capacitance and a characteristic impedance that matches speaker impedance ranges without using a network box.

My lead times are a little long right now (~4wks) but I'm working to reduce them and it's worth the wait.

I thought I'd try some pure silver UP-OCC cables. Neotech has distributors in the UK (Hifi Collective) and France (Audiophonics). They don't sell the made up cable, but you can buy the components and two 30 minute time units and you will get a nice pair of cables.

I went for this one:

Also Neotech gold plated UP-OCC copper XLR plugs, which cost three times the price of the OPC copper, but what the hell.
Total cost including UK 20% sales tax and delivery was about $850.

 

[DaveC]

I thought I'd try some pure silver UP-OCC cables. Neotech has distributors in the UK (Hifi Collective) and France (Audiophonics). They don't sell the made up cable, but you can buy the components and two 30 minute time units and you will get a nice pair of cables.
View attachment 137836
I went for this one:
View attachment 137839
Also Neotech gold plated UP-OCC copper XLR plugs, which cost three times the price of the OPC copper, but what the hell.
Total cost including UK 20% sales tax and delivery was about $850.

Nice! Great value too. Give them about 100 hours before you listen, and if you change them out to compare to other cables try to handle them as gently as possible. The ribbon wire is very susceptible to generating noise via bending/handling which makes shipping and demoing them a problem, but it dissipates to low levels over time. It takes 500+ hours undisturbed to sound their best!

I'm back to round wire for IC cables with a new D4.2 set to replace both my D4 silver/gold and DSR silver ribbon cables. It's a bit better than both, using a very heavy gauge design with excellent noise rejection and better focus vs the DSR and more resolution/clarity vs D4.