Which is Better Sound From High Power: Single Tube SET or Parallel Tube SET?

[bonzo75]

Interesting. I am part owner of a Living Voice VOX Olympian system with the bass horns. We mainly use Kondo electronics, but we did use a pair of Lamm ML3 Signature monoblocks to drive them for a while, on loan from the distributor. I must say that I prefer the Lamm to any of the Kondo amps we have used. Somehow, the ML3 does not sound like typical tube or transistor amps, they are very neutral, dynamic and the bass has power and definition. They have less coloration but sound even more musical than the Kondos. The VOX uses the same midrange driver as the Vitavox CN-191.

the Vox uses a new Vitavox S2 which is now available at 7k GBP for the pair which those who know both drivers well will say is different from the older S2s. Same with Altecs or any other modem reissues.

Vox also uses above that a TAD 2002 1 inch driver plus a TAD 703 tweeter

 

[adrianywu]

I have owned a SET, and I now have a push-pull triode. My SET was a Cary CAD-805AE. It had a 6SN7 input stage, 300B intermediate stage, and 845 output stage. Cary claimed it made 50W. This is a picture of the amp:

View attachment 106322

My current amplifier is a Cary CAD-211AE. It is essentially two CAD-805AE SET's but arranged in a push-pull configuration. So: two 300B's, and two 845's. This is what it looks like:

View attachment 106323

For a while, I had a crazy bi-amp setup with all four monoblocks in the system. It was quite a sight to behold:

View attachment 106324

Anyway, I should get to the point of my post.

A few years ago, my CAD-211AE developed a problem where it would regularly blow up those expensive 845's, which meant many trips to my audio engineer for repairs. During one visit, we had a conversation which went like this:

Me: "Looks like I have to buy another pair of matched 845's".
Him: "I have never seen a so-called matched pair measure the same on my tube tester."
Me: "Really? Why not?"
Him: "Because of manufacturing tolerances. Tubes are expensive to produce, and by their very nature they are subject to a lot of variability. There is variability within one manufacturer due to how much tolerance they apply before junking the tube. There is variability between manufacturers due to different interpretations of the published specification of the tube, and different standards of tolerance".
Me: "What is a good tube then?"
Him: "One that works with your amplifier. The person who designed your amplifier did it with an idealized version of the tube he had in mind. Some tube manufacturers may produce tubes that are out of spec for your amplifier, but your particular amplifier is able to compensate for it. Do not buy expensive tubes, because the only thing that matters is whether they work with your amp."
Me: "Hmm, if matched pairs of tubes are not the same, then why would anybody design a push-pull amplifier if they know that the push and pull parts of the amplifier might be populated by tubes which do not perform the same?"
Him: "They design amps like yours because of a commercial imperative. There was a need in the market for a powerful triode amplifier, and the only way to get that is to make it push-pull. There are limitations to such an approach, but that's what engineers do. We recognize that the pull stage might output a different voltage to the push stage, so we design around that".
Me: "Does this mean that a SET is a superior design to a push-pull triode?"
Him: "Better in the sense that it does not have the same compromise of mismatched tubes. But worse in terms of power output, which ultimately is more important. Would you rather have a push-pull amplifier with compromises you can design around, or would you rather have a lower powered amp that clips when you ask it to drive a speaker?".

the Vox uses a new Vitavox S2 which is now available at 7k for the pair which those who know both drivers well will say is different from the older S2s. Same with Altecs or any other modem reissues

I understand that the material used and the design have remained the same. Apart from the age of the drivers (the old ones being, well, old), what are the differences ?

 

[bonzo75]

I understand that the material used and the design have remained the same. Apart from the age of the drivers (the old ones being, well, old), what are the differences ?

different engineers . Same with Altec drivers or WE tubes or people who make reissues from the same master tape even using tubed equipments

 

[adrianywu]

different engineers . Same with Altec drivers or WE tubes or people who make reissues from the same master tape even using tubed equipments

But engineers are just employees, and can quit at any time. Manufacturers should have QC to ensure consistency of their products. Tubes were made by thousands of different workers. Can you imagine the nightmare if the quality is all over the place ?

 

[flm09]

Interesting. I am part owner of a Living Voice VOX Olympian system with the bass horns. We mainly use Kondo electronics, but we did use a pair of Lamm ML3 Signature monoblocks to drive them for a while, on loan from the distributor. I must say that I prefer the Lamm to any of the Kondo amps we have used. Somehow, the ML3 does not sound like typical tube or transistor amps, they are very neutral, dynamic and the bass has power and definition. They have less coloration but sound even more musical than the Kondos. The VOX uses the same midrange driver as the Vitavox CN-191.

Wow your system I would like to hear! A musician friend of mine said 20 yrs ago the Lamm ML 2.1 set using 6c33c was the best he ever heard?

 

[bonzo75]

But engineers are just employees, and can quit at any time. Manufacturers should have QC to ensure consistency of their products. Tubes were made by thousands of different workers. Can you imagine the nightmare if the quality is all over the place ?

thousands? How many people do you think are making the Vitavox driver today

 

[adrianywu]

thousands? How many people do you think are making the Vitavox driver today

I don't know. Neither do we know how many different employees were involved with making these drivers in the old days. There could have been one engineer working there for 30 years, or 30 engineers. Thousands refer to tube manufacturing in its heyday, when hundreds of thousands of units of some popular tube types were produced by a single manufacturer each year. Ironic that we hear of people worshipping certain Telefunken or Amperex tubes. If there is such a large variation between tubes made by different workers, it would be foolish to collect these tubes.

 

[morricab]

Interesting. I am part owner of a Living Voice VOX Olympian system with the bass horns. We mainly use Kondo electronics, but we did use a pair of Lamm ML3 Signature monoblocks to drive them for a while, on loan from the distributor. I must say that I prefer the Lamm to any of the Kondo amps we have used. Somehow, the ML3 does not sound like typical tube or transistor amps, they are very neutral, dynamic and the bass has power and definition. They have less coloration but sound even more musical than the Kondos. The VOX uses the same midrange driver as the Vitavox CN-191.

That seems to be the trait of a well done GM70 amp. This tube seems to be a real winner in the big bottle amp arena. Just out of curiosity, what Kondo amps were/are you using on the LVs?

 

[morricab]

the Vox uses a new Vitavox S2 which is now available at 7k GBP for the pair which those who know both drivers well will say is different from the older S2s. Same with Altecs or any other modem reissues.

Vox also uses above that a TAD 2002 1 inch driver plus a TAD 703 tweeter

DIfferent how? Anyway, it is a superb driver...one of the best.

 

[PeterA]

DIfferent how? Anyway, it is a superb driver...one of the best.

DDK heard the Living Voice Vox when setting up his turntable for a client. He also lived with my early version Vitavox and showed at CES a later version with the ML2s. He shared with me his opinions about the differences between all of these speakers and why the newer drivers sound different in the Vox and the changes in cabinets with the CN191. I also discussed this with David and Romy the Cat when listening to Romy’s speakers that use some of these drivers. You can email ddk to learn more.

 

[morricab]

DDK heard the Living Voice Vox when setting up his turntable for a client. He also lived with my early version Vitavox and showed at CES a later version with the ML2s. He shared with me his opinions about the differences between all of these speakers and why the newer drivers sound different in the Vox and the changes in cabinets with the CN191. I also discussed this with David and Romy the Cat when listening to Romy’s speakers that use some of these drivers. You can email ddk to learn more.

Have you heard the Living Voice Vox Olympians with Elyssian subs? I suspect you would lose your mind (in a good way)... Do try also to hear either the Symphonia or Aurora from Aries Cerat...they are wonderful modern horn examples.

 

[bonzo75]

DDK heard the Living Voice Vox when setting up his turntable for a client. He also lived with my early version Vitavox and showed at CES a later version with the ML2s. He shared with me his opinions about the differences between all of these speakers and why the newer drivers sound different in the Vox and the changes in cabinets with the CN191. I also discussed this with David and Romy the Cat when listening to Romy’s speakers that use some of these drivers. You can email ddk to learn more.

I don't think it is possible to know exact differences between drivers by listening to speakers with different electronics and crossovers and horns. There is a lot going on there. Unless one driver is clearly bad. I have heard 3 implementations of S2 in DIY stuff and additionally recently heard it the living voice air scouts with Kondo Neiro 2a3, Audio note silver empress 2a3, and the Audio Detail GM70 (which was the best). Changing the amp or valve tube can completely make or break the system and you will not be able to recognize some of the artefacts of the driver you just heard. I

With good drivers it comes down to overall speaker strategy also. For example Kevin in both Vox Olympian and the earlier living voice air scouts, insists on using another driver and a tweeter on top of the S2. This is for extension. Misho, who knows a lot about Western Electrics (having owned 16a), Bionor (having owned one), having had many Vitavox, Altecs, JBL, and other drivers, likes both S2 and S3 but will not use them in a 2-way due to roll off. So if someone prefers a 2-way design with first-order crossover, he will use Altec, because it is better for 2-ways with the higher extension of the 802/288 G and H drivers as compared to S2 and S3, and similar character, with multicells, as multicells help in 2-way speakers.

So, driver is not to be taken in isolation. It needs to match to the woofer, dispersion strategy, and general horn strategy.

 

[adrianywu]

DDK heard the Living Voice Vox when setting up his turntable for a client. He also lived with my early version Vitavox and showed at CES a later version with the ML2s. He shared with me his opinions about the differences between all of these speakers and why the newer drivers sound different in the Vox and the changes in cabinets with the CN191. I also discussed this with David and Romy the Cat when listening to Romy’s speakers that use some of these drivers. You can email ddk to learn more.

Has he listened to the early drivers when they were new ? Hard to compare 50 year old drivers with a lot of playing time and new drivers. It is like comparing a 50-year-old Chateau Latour and a recent release side by side and saying that the older wine was better made. It is better probably because of age. Even if your friend had heard these drivers 50 years ago, I doubt he could remember how they sounded, and his hearing would have changed too with age ! According to Vitavox, the S2 remains virtually unchanged since the earliest days. I can't see any reason why they can't make them as well as they used to, unless they have decided to cut corners. And knowing these folks, this is highly unlikely. Of course, it is the same argument made by used record dealers, antique dealers etc. According to these people, product quality just gets worse as time goes on. I buy the argument that the current "Gold Lion" KT88 is nothing like the original, but this is because they are fact made with different materials and a different process. The only thing similar is the name. This is not the case with the Vitavox, which is made by the same company using the same tools and design, and the same materials.

 

[adrianywu]

That seems to be the trait of a well done GM70 amp. This tube seems to be a real winner in the big bottle amp arena. Just out of curiosity, what Kondo amps were/are you using on the LVs?

We are using the M77 preamp and Gakuoh. We have also used the Souga 2A3. The distributor (for both Living Voice and Kondo) did not like the Ongaku on this setup and we never set it up this way.

 

[bonzo75]

We are using the M77 preamp and Gakuoh. We have also used the Souga 2A3. The distributor (for both Living Voice and Kondo) did not like the Ongaku on this setup and we never set it up this way.

So did you prefer the Lamm to the 2a3 or the Gakuoh or both? What was the difference between Gakuoh and 2a3? Did the 2a3 have enough drive for the Vox?

 

[adrianywu]

So did you prefer the Lamm to the 2a3 or the Gakuoh or both? What was the difference between Gakuoh and 2a3? Did the 2a3 have enough drive for the Vox?

Even though the VOX has very high sensitivity, the 2A3 sounded a bit wimpy on large scale orchestral music. It sounded great with less demanding music such as folk singers, jazz etc. I like the tone of the 2A3 better than the Gakuoh, but I am a symphony lover and the 2A3 just did not cut it. The Gakuoh just sounded bigger with better depth and macrodynamics. The Lamm does not have the lovely tone of the Kondo, but it sounds closer to live. It is neutral in that sense, it does not beautify. It has more transparency and even better dynamics, esp. at the bass region. The VOX with the Lamm is probably the best sound I have ever heard anywhere. I have to admit it is better than what I have at home. I would love to have the Lamm......

 

[morricab]

Even though the VOX has very high sensitivity, the 2A3 sounded a bit wimpy on large scale orchestral music. It sounded great with less demanding music such as folk singers, jazz etc. I like the tone of the 2A3 better than the Gakuoh, but I am a symphony lover and the 2A3 just did not cut it. The Gakuoh just sounded bigger with better depth and macrodynamics. The Lamm does not have the lovely tone of the Kondo, but it sounds closer to live. It is neutral in that sense, it does not beautify. It has more transparency and even better dynamics, esp. at the bass region. The VOX with the Lamm is probably the best sound I have ever heard anywhere. I have to admit it is better than what I have at home. I would love to have the Lamm......

Our esteemed WBF member Microstrip, has a pair for sale...

 

[morricab]

Even though the VOX has very high sensitivity, the 2A3 sounded a bit wimpy on large scale orchestral music. It sounded great with less demanding music such as folk singers, jazz etc. I like the tone of the 2A3 better than the Gakuoh, but I am a symphony lover and the 2A3 just did not cut it. The Gakuoh just sounded bigger with better depth and macrodynamics. The Lamm does not have the lovely tone of the Kondo, but it sounds closer to live. It is neutral in that sense, it does not beautify. It has more transparency and even better dynamics, esp. at the bass region. The VOX with the Lamm is probably the best sound I have ever heard anywhere. I have to admit it is better than what I have at home. I would love to have the Lamm......

Did you have a chance to try any other SETs on those amazing speakers?

 

[PeterA]

I don't think it is possible to know exact differences between drivers by listening to speakers with different electronics and crossovers and horns. There is a lot going on there. Unless one driver is clearly bad. I have heard 3 implementations of S2 in DIY stuff and additionally recently heard it the living voice air scouts with Kondo Neiro 2a3, Audio note silver empress 2a3, and the Audio Detail GM70 (which was the best). Changing the amp or valve tube can completely make or break the system and you will not be able to recognize some of the artefacts of the driver you just heard. I

With good drivers it comes down to overall speaker strategy also. For example Kevin in both Vox Olympian and the earlier living voice air scouts, insists on using another driver and a tweeter on top of the S2. This is for extension. Misho, who knows a lot about Western Electrics (having owned 16a), Bionor (having owned one), having had many Vitavox, Altecs, JBL, and other drivers, likes both S2 and S3 but will not use them in a 2-way due to roll off. So if someone prefers a 2-way design with first-order crossover, he will use Altec, because it is better for 2-ways with the higher extension of the 802/288 G and H drivers as compared to S2 and S3, and similar character, with multicells, as multicells help in 2-way speakers.

So, driver is not to be taken in isolation. It needs to match to the woofer, dispersion strategy, and general horn strategy.

You can read how VOX modifies the drivers. Different people putting things together with different values. Yes, cabinets are an issue too. Just saying those who have compared the original and later versions of Vitavox notice differences. There seem to be many opinions about the Living Voice Vox. I have not heard it. Of course design aesthetic and values of the builder also play a role and the result is different sounds.

 

[bonzo75]

You can read how VOX modifies the drivers. Different people putting things together with different values. Yes, cabinets are an issue too. Just saying those who have compared the original and later versions of Vitavox notice differences. There seem to be many opinions about the Living Voice Vox. I have not heard it. Of course design aesthetic and values of the builder also play a role and the result is different sounds.

i am sure you can judge speakers on a whole but it is not possible to judge drivers in such disparate set ups without replacing it in the same horn speaker, especially given how close they would be in reality. For example, if there was no magic lacking in one of the systems you would not be able to say if it came from the drivers or something else.