Why Do Different USB Cables Sound Different

[jkeny]

All of your questions are answered on my website in my signature

And, yes, that is old news about batteries - it relates to sealed lead acid (SLA) - battery chemistry has advanced greatly since then. Anyway, I'm making the transition to supercapacitors

 

[allhifi]

All of your questions are answered on my website in my signature

And, yes, that is old news about batteries - it relates to sealed lead acid (SLA) - battery chemistry has advanced greatly since then. Anyway, I'm making the transition to supercapacitors

Hi John: I made it to your website. All is good.

What advantage is there to 'new' battery design ?
(it's not clear/discussed on the website)

pj

 

[jkeny]

Hi John: I made it to your website. All is good.

What advantage is there to 'new' battery design ?
(it's not clear/discussed on the website)

pj

PJ supercapacitors are not 'new' batteries - they are very high capacity capacitors - I use 350F (yes Farads, not micro Farads - this is 350,000 micro Farads).

The audible differences are explained here: https://www.ciunas.biz/supercapacitor-vs-batteries

 

[allhifi]

jkeny: Thanks for the link; capacitor/battery distinctions are clear to me. What I was wondering was whether the the higher (output) impedance of older battery-powered devices (or capacitor's) were part of the problem for audiophiles that deemed/found battery power (DC) not as desirable/better sounding (as originally believed) than 120/240V AC power.
The following (taken from link) touches upon this:

" ...LiFePo4 batteries & supercapactitors are both capable of satisfying these requirements & the only difference between them appears to be the speed of the current delivery. High capacity supercapacitors often have a very low impedance (this value is a measure of the ability to deliver current quickly - the lower the impedance, the faster the current delivery) ..... "

pj

 

[jkeny]

jkeny: Thanks for the link; capacitor/battery distinctions are clear to me. What I was wondering was whether the the higher (output) impedance of older battery-powered devices (or capacitor's) were part of the problem for audiophiles that deemed/found battery power (DC) not as desirable/better sounding (as originally believed) than 120/240V AC power.
The following (taken from link) touches upon this:

" ...LiFePo4 batteries & supercapactitors are both capable of satisfying these requirements & the only difference between them appears to be the speed of the current delivery. High capacity supercapacitors often have a very low impedance (this value is a measure of the ability to deliver current quickly - the lower the impedance, the faster the current delivery) ..... "

pj

The usual objections to batteries are based on SLA (car batteries) batteries powering audio devices. These use slow chemical reactions & are noisy & much, much higher output impedance (I don't now the exact value) - as a result their sound is dominated by these characteristics. But even with SLAs, there are some lower impedance types which reportedly sound better.

The output impedance of A123 LiFePo4 batteris is around 8mOhm which is far better than most electrolytic capacitors used in audio. The supercaps being 3-4mOhm is better again.

There are two factors which I consider important to audio - low & stable noise profile- low impedance is highly likely to be of importance in this regard. But here's a head scratching thing - the wires/tracks that carry the power to the device are often of higher impedance than this 3-4mohm so there's probably something else at play & just low impedance isn't the full picture - it's needed over a very wide frequency

 

[allhifi]

The usual objections to batteries are based on SLA (car batteries) batteries powering audio devices. These use slow chemical reactions & are noisy & much, much higher output impedance (I don't now the exact value) - as a result their sound is dominated by these characteristics. But even with SLAs, there are some lower impedance types which reportedly sound better.

The output impedance of A123 LiFePo4 batteris is around 8mOhm which is far better than most electrolytic capacitors used in audio. The supercaps being 3-4mOhm is better again.

There are two factors which I consider important to audio - low & stable noise profile- low impedance is highly likely to be of importance in this regard. But here's a head scratching thing - the wires/tracks that carry the power to the device are often of higher impedance than this 3-4mohm so there's probably something else at play & just low impedance isn't the full picture - it's needed over a very wide frequency

John: You analyze things well:

" ....But here's a head scratching thing - the wires/tracks that carry the power to the device are often of higher impedance than this 3-4mohm so there's probably something else at play & just low impedance isn't the full picture - it's needed over a very wide frequency "

Indeed. And so much more (to consider/evaluate) ...

pj

 

[jkeny]

John: You analyze things well:

" ....But here's a head scratching thing - the wires/tracks that carry the power to the device are often of higher impedance than this 3-4mohm so there's probably something else at play & just low impedance isn't the full picture - it's needed over a very wide frequency "

Indeed. And so much more (to consider/evaluate) ...

pj

Sure, but not knowing the full underlying mechanisms of action does not obviate what the ears hear
I have just started a tour of one of my supercap PS on a UK forum & hope to have my other supercap audio devices also on tour soon

 

[allhifi]

Sure, but not knowing the full underlying mechanisms of action does not obviate what the ears hear
I have just started a tour of one of my supercap PS on a UK forum & hope to have my other supercap audio devices also on tour soon

Absolutely correct: " ...but not knowing the full underlying mechanisms of action does not obviate what the ears hear"

pj
(P.S> Something the anti-cable guys simply are unable to comprehend, reason, appreciate. They really do belong to a sub-set of human kind. lol)

 

[amey01]

The Digital Link has always played a very important part since the early days. It's just as important as your phono cables, 0s & 1s seem to be just as picky!

david

How come these 1s and 0s are only picky with music? How come they are not picky with other data? (Do you get inaccurate bank statements if you attempt internet banking with a non-audiophile grade cable? Do you get spelling errors in your emails if you press "send" without a decent cable in place?)

 

[Legolas]

Data is sent as a current /like an audio wave. It gets noise, and that is audible. It is widely known. It isn't just ones and zeros.
There is plenty of technicals on the web to explain it, so won't do it here.

 

[ddk]

How come these 1s and 0s are only picky with music? How come they are not picky with other data? (Do you get inaccurate bank statements if you attempt internet banking with a non-audiophile grade cable? Do you get spelling errors in your emails if you press "send" without a decent cable in place?)

It isn’t a question of data all the zeros and ones are there sound quality of a cable goes beyond that basic task. Whatever it is that affects quality of sound is an issue with all cables, analog and digital. The cable industry has many hypothetical and fantastic reasons why it is that wire changes quality of sound but I haven’t come across anything that explains this phenomenon.

david

 

[microstrip]

It isn’t a question of data all the zeros and ones are there sound quality of a cable goes beyond that basic task. Whatever it is that affects quality of sound is an issue with all cables, analog and digital. The cable industry has many hypothetical and fantastic reasons why it is that wire changes quality of sound but I haven’t come across anything that explains this phenomenon.

david

I think it is accepted by most people that the differences come from how the cables handle RF from hundreds of kilohertz up pt to the several gigahertz. This extremely large range of frequencies must be treated as noise, and we are also faced with the problem that subjectively many people perceive the addition of RF noise as an improvement of sound quality. In such conditions, as you say, nothing can be found to correlate with sound quality.

 

[microstrip]

Data is sent as a current /like an audio wave. It gets noise, and that is audible. It is widely known. It isn't just ones and zeros.
There is plenty of technicals on the web to explain it, so won't do it here.

IMHO 99% of them are just pseudo- technical, unfortunately. Plenty of technical aspects to dazzle the reader that are not relevant to USB as they ignore the question that USB is asynchronous and the clock source is on the side of the DAC. The more complete explanation I read until now was from Taiko Audio debating the Extreme in the Extreme thread.

 

[ddk]

I think it is accepted by most people that the differences come from how the cables handle RF from hundreds of kilohertz up pt to the several gigahertz. This extremely large range of frequencies must be treated as noise, and we are also faced with the problem that subjectively many people perceive the addition of RF noise as an improvement of sound quality. In such conditions, as you say, nothing can be found to correlate with sound quality.

In the end it’s just an electric signal passing through a conductor or electricity from a wall outlet powering electronics there’s no obvious reason why sound quality gets affected and I’m not talking about noise.

david

 

[Alrainbow]

Don’t mix analog and digital.
It’s a completely different situation.
I’m guessing this below
1-data is voltage and has noise inserted this effects the digital timing of the bits
All data has data correction applied in fact if you turn it off odd things happen mostly not good.
Now since music is a continuous effect the delay matters. On a simple data stream as long as the check sum match all is happy. But music needs to be on time. We hear it.
2- again same delays but for other reasons. The usb cable is a two way data steam this means both are streaming but it can’t do this in the same time domain. The clock makes this happen in bursts. Each in one direction. The delay of this burst is also heard.
The imp match of the usb cable on each end effects this. You cant match both sides as each is and most likely are not the same
A given usb cert 2.0 or 3.0 is made to a given spec and most all audio wizardly usb cable are not. This means they are closer on one side and more apart on the other again we hear this.
There are many others as well.
Now as this is all subjective and in my place not a placebo it tells me two things.
1- if you don’t hear this it may mean your setup is not showing you.
2- like bad timbre not all hear it.
3- in many cases I could use my iPhone to video it and we all should hear this.

Now I’m not special in fact and I mean this. But as I attend enough shows and private events to know many don’t don’t hear this.

 

[nonesup]

IMHO 99% of them are just pseudo- technical, unfortunately. Plenty of technical aspects to dazzle the reader that are not relevant to USB as they ignore the question that USB is asynchronous and the clock source is on the side of the DAC. The more complete explanation I read until now was from Taiko Audio debating the Extreme in the Extreme thread.

Yes that is correct the data control is done by the DAC, however many users report improvement in the sound with the new Reclocker Innuos Phoenix and this makes me think that we still have a lot to discover about USB transmission (and about Ethernet, too )

 

[Alrainbow]

It’s tiny sorry read it find a way to. It puts a good perspective on my answers as well as others here. the one thing it can’t show is ignorance to those who refuse to accept truths. But hey audio gods who sell products should never be challenged.