Why does burning in work
- Thread starter Loheswaran
- Start date
Yes, without a doubt!
At best I've noticed, and it's quite apparent, if I power up the system around 9pm, by 10pm it sounds good. By midnight it's reached optimal and from midnight onwards till 4am, it's in another dimension. Now it's 2:38am as I'm typing this, the system has been on since 8:45pm... and is most marvellous!
I guess, since most listening sessions are well after midnight, things are a whole lot quieter, plus this is where the Red kicks in...
Cheers! RJ
At best I've noticed, and it's quite apparent, if I power up the system around 9pm, by 10pm it sounds good. By midnight it's reached optimal and from midnight onwards till 4am, it's in another dimension. Now it's 2:38am as I'm typing this, the system has been on since 8:45pm... and is most marvellous!
I guess, since most listening sessions are well after midnight, things are a whole lot quieter, plus this is where the Red kicks in...
Cheers! RJ
At night the electrical grid settles down. Uh oh I think I just sparked another debate. lol
Last edited:
When electronics warm up they need a long time to reach the point of thermal stability. I believe it takes more time for solid-state, than it does for tubes. Mainly because tubes have a heater, that besides emitting electrons, well heats the whole thing. To be frank, sometimes I don't turn off my solid-state amps at all.
Good point! In fact, most or nearly all SS gear have standby modes, so lightly powered on...
Although the majority of tube gear is meant to be completely shutt off, there are certain gear where they have standby modes as part of their design. My current CJ preamp has this, in fact, all of CJ's Premier standard preamps that I've previously owned, had standby circuits. Certainly helps to keep things in tune!
One item I'm very finicky about is the latest Esoteric digital gear. Their design is superb but during start up, they're stone cold! One chap said he never shuts off his Eso gear but the manual states "if left on continuously, will catch fire!"
My particular unit shuts off automatically after about 10mins of no signal. I'm not even sure how to bypass this and keep things warmed up but it takes quite a while to get going. Once it reaches optimal performance, it just shifts into a different dimension, and it's a beautiful thing! I guess that's their design philosophy.
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ
Although the majority of tube gear is meant to be completely shutt off, there are certain gear where they have standby modes as part of their design. My current CJ preamp has this, in fact, all of CJ's Premier standard preamps that I've previously owned, had standby circuits. Certainly helps to keep things in tune!
One item I'm very finicky about is the latest Esoteric digital gear. Their design is superb but during start up, they're stone cold! One chap said he never shuts off his Eso gear but the manual states "if left on continuously, will catch fire!"
My particular unit shuts off automatically after about 10mins of no signal. I'm not even sure how to bypass this and keep things warmed up but it takes quite a while to get going. Once it reaches optimal performance, it just shifts into a different dimension, and it's a beautiful thing! I guess that's their design philosophy.
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ
Then we have to resort to the oldest audiophile tweak. You wake up, brush your teeth, turn on your audio, go to work, come back later, enjoy your burnt-in system
Ah! Good one mate.Then we have to resort to the oldest audiophile tweak. You wake up, brush your teeth, turn on your audio, go to work, come back later, enjoy your burnt-in system
Hence, the reason why 99.99% of my listening sessions are around midnight into the wee hoursofthemorning. Since lately I've changed work places, so now the music is even more enjoyable. I get to listen from 9pm onwards, compared to midnight onwards... so at least a few extra hours helps in warm up!
Good stuff indeed when it really gets going. Winter is in effect now, since we're down unda, seasons are sort of topsy turvy over here. It's also nice to have tubes as they nicely warm up the room.
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ
I don't know about burn in. Technically what is going on that is. I believe I have heard it. Did I do a blind test, no. How could I over several days to weeks. But I am confident I have heard my system sound better after a few days from where it was prior to a change.
What I am very confident about is during the production process of wire making, the wire develops a flow pattern or grain to it. This grain pattern can be measured. Expensive scopes can be used to measure hard scientific data to show electron current is slightly different based upon the direction the current is run through the wire.
Why does this matter? It matters because the direction a wire was pulled when manufactured also creates an audible affect. This is what I care about. I don't care about a very expensive scope telling me something exists if it has no relevant impact on the sonics of my system. A couple people I know told me the direction of grain in the wire has an audible affect and I should test my wire before installing it.
Armed with knowledge, what would any good audiophile do. I built a few tools. One of the tools is a tester to listen for the direction of the grain in the wire. Upon applying this tool into my system, I began to test 3 roles of 10 AWG THHN/THWN wire. The same wire any electrician uses to connect up a receptacle to your panelboard. Fully 100% UL listed, code compliant wire. Over the course of a week, I took small pieces of the black, white and green wire and inserted them into my tool and listened. Each time I performed the test I wrote the answers down, then put the list away so I did not know what the results were from the past test. Over 16 blind test of the wire, I came out with 16 confirming results. Every time the wire in one direction sounded wonderful. Open, expressive, vivid, natural. It just sounded right. The other direction and it was like something was missing. I wanted to get up and turn the volume up on my system. It's very apparent when you hear it. It takes all of about 10 seconds of listening to some test tracks of mine and its either right or wrong.
Now that I knew grain orientation was real, and I could hear it, and test for it, I started building more tools. One tool being a large wire bobbin. It's a tool that allows me to install 3 x roles of #10 wire spools and spin the wires together. I then built another tool to be a take off machine to accept the now spun wire. At current time I make runs of 500 feet of 10 AWG THHN/THWN wire that is intended to be pulled in a PVC or Smurf tube.
I did this same test with a role of 10 AWG Romex I had in my basement. The black and white were one direction, the ground the other. FWIW, the role of black wire I tested was backward to the white and green. I had to spin the wire off its spool onto another spool so it was oriented the same direction as the white and green.
I cut this short video on what I am doing. It basically says the same as I have stated here.
Please take into consideration this is the first video I have ever made. I am absolutely new to video editing. It has quite a learning cure to it. The video is a bit rough. If you have the link or share the link, you can watch it. I have not published it on You Tube yet for general viewing. That will come soon.
Rex
What I am very confident about is during the production process of wire making, the wire develops a flow pattern or grain to it. This grain pattern can be measured. Expensive scopes can be used to measure hard scientific data to show electron current is slightly different based upon the direction the current is run through the wire.
Why does this matter? It matters because the direction a wire was pulled when manufactured also creates an audible affect. This is what I care about. I don't care about a very expensive scope telling me something exists if it has no relevant impact on the sonics of my system. A couple people I know told me the direction of grain in the wire has an audible affect and I should test my wire before installing it.
Armed with knowledge, what would any good audiophile do. I built a few tools. One of the tools is a tester to listen for the direction of the grain in the wire. Upon applying this tool into my system, I began to test 3 roles of 10 AWG THHN/THWN wire. The same wire any electrician uses to connect up a receptacle to your panelboard. Fully 100% UL listed, code compliant wire. Over the course of a week, I took small pieces of the black, white and green wire and inserted them into my tool and listened. Each time I performed the test I wrote the answers down, then put the list away so I did not know what the results were from the past test. Over 16 blind test of the wire, I came out with 16 confirming results. Every time the wire in one direction sounded wonderful. Open, expressive, vivid, natural. It just sounded right. The other direction and it was like something was missing. I wanted to get up and turn the volume up on my system. It's very apparent when you hear it. It takes all of about 10 seconds of listening to some test tracks of mine and its either right or wrong.
Now that I knew grain orientation was real, and I could hear it, and test for it, I started building more tools. One tool being a large wire bobbin. It's a tool that allows me to install 3 x roles of #10 wire spools and spin the wires together. I then built another tool to be a take off machine to accept the now spun wire. At current time I make runs of 500 feet of 10 AWG THHN/THWN wire that is intended to be pulled in a PVC or Smurf tube.
I did this same test with a role of 10 AWG Romex I had in my basement. The black and white were one direction, the ground the other. FWIW, the role of black wire I tested was backward to the white and green. I had to spin the wire off its spool onto another spool so it was oriented the same direction as the white and green.
I cut this short video on what I am doing. It basically says the same as I have stated here.
Please take into consideration this is the first video I have ever made. I am absolutely new to video editing. It has quite a learning cure to it. The video is a bit rough. If you have the link or share the link, you can watch it. I have not published it on You Tube yet for general viewing. That will come soon.
Rex
My 2 cents here. I am not siding either way and don't claim to know in depth analysis or question anybody actually making an effort to measure these.
With my experience in changing multiple gears, the only time I saw "burn in" making actual audible difference was with lumin T2 on electronic side and may be (a big maybe) when I bought new monitor audio PL500II. With almost all other gears I had (and have), I did not perceive audible difference with burn-in. Of course as mentioned in previous posts, there might be measurable technical changes or my ears adapted to gradual change.
But I certainly hear difference in "warm up": which is - the whole system sounding good after 30-60 minutes of playing (be it solid state or tube).
Another audible phenomenon is the "settling in" with power cables. It takes few days of cables to "settle in" with system before it sounds "its best".
Good to hear different perspectives from others here.
With my experience in changing multiple gears, the only time I saw "burn in" making actual audible difference was with lumin T2 on electronic side and may be (a big maybe) when I bought new monitor audio PL500II. With almost all other gears I had (and have), I did not perceive audible difference with burn-in. Of course as mentioned in previous posts, there might be measurable technical changes or my ears adapted to gradual change.
But I certainly hear difference in "warm up": which is - the whole system sounding good after 30-60 minutes of playing (be it solid state or tube).
Another audible phenomenon is the "settling in" with power cables. It takes few days of cables to "settle in" with system before it sounds "its best".
Good to hear different perspectives from others here.
Those hours are changing a lot, I'm sure. Also at night, the electricity is usually a lot cleaner. At that time people aren't using washing machines, vacuums and the other stuff like that. This also plays into the better experience of listening at night.
Tubes are always a welcomed addition!
How do you feel about warm-up? If your system is transparent enough to let you hear the grain of the wire, then you can do an easy experiment to see if the warm-up is a thing in your setup. Turn on your gear, and listen to one or two songs of your choice. Then wait 3 hours with no music and listen to them again. I'm curious about what you think about that. Will you give it a try?
I know, that some manufacturers are burning in gear as a part of the production to see if it meets their standards. Maybe that is why you haven't experienced it too much? Just a wild guess.
I believe that settling in of cables refers to all of them. Somebody explained to me one time that it is due to the dielectric, not the copper. Sadly I can't remember more than that.
I hear my system stabilize over about 10 minutes. After that, I am not sure the change.
I do feel if I have the system up to a comfortable operating level for 10 or 15 minutes, it seems to get even more free flowing and unrestricted feeling.
I do feel if I have the system up to a comfortable operating level for 10 or 15 minutes, it seems to get even more free flowing and unrestricted feeling.
This effect is a good evidence of the limits of classical measurements, such as distortion and noise. If you take measurements after 1 minute and after 30 minutes you will not see noticeable differences that we can correlate with sound quality. But in many systems, including mine, sound quality goes from average to great - a typical nigh and day difference.
That's a great advantage of tubes, they warm up much faster than solid-state does. Transistors and ICs run much cooler, so it takes much longer for them to warm up equally.
Yes, it is very hard to measure that effect. What we can measure easily is the new speakers' break-in. A new, unused driver has vastly different TS parameters than a driver that played for 50 hours. This difference can be quite big, to be honest. That's why it's smart to take it easy on new speakers for the first week or two.
Dartzeel is amazing. I don't sense I am missing tubes. I don't sense its SS. Its just music. Its very balanced and revealing. I partly bought it to be used as a lab piece as I develop products. I put this on my wall and turned it on last night.
Right away I heard what it was doing and love it. I was wondering if I would notice a burn in. It ran for about an hour to get everything going, and let my wife finish work. Then I turned it up to get a good listening level to feel for what it brought. It really was an OMG.
Today it has been running for an hour as background while we have coffee. I don't see any way to evaluate if there was a break/burn in. I did not have a chance to do what we did at Marty's.
At Marty's we turned his system back on after a new 40 foot run of copper feeder and a new all copper sub panel was added. We listened for about 1 hour. In that time I heard it shift. Marty noted that shift seemed to be the system sounding warmed up in 10 minutes. Not 1 hour.
We then all went out to dinner. After dinner, Marty and I settled in for a good listen. About 30 or 40 minutes in I started to really understand what was different. I don't know if it was a break in that was causing my sense of perception change. I seemed to become aware his system was at a whole new level. So did he. It took us both an hour or so to put our heads around it.
Right away I heard what it was doing and love it. I was wondering if I would notice a burn in. It ran for about an hour to get everything going, and let my wife finish work. Then I turned it up to get a good listening level to feel for what it brought. It really was an OMG.
Today it has been running for an hour as background while we have coffee. I don't see any way to evaluate if there was a break/burn in. I did not have a chance to do what we did at Marty's.
At Marty's we turned his system back on after a new 40 foot run of copper feeder and a new all copper sub panel was added. We listened for about 1 hour. In that time I heard it shift. Marty noted that shift seemed to be the system sounding warmed up in 10 minutes. Not 1 hour.
We then all went out to dinner. After dinner, Marty and I settled in for a good listen. About 30 or 40 minutes in I started to really understand what was different. I don't know if it was a break in that was causing my sense of perception change. I seemed to become aware his system was at a whole new level. So did he. It took us both an hour or so to put our heads around it.
Attachments
I did notice immediately after installing the Torus and distribution panel, the sound was distinctly out of each speaker for about 10 to 15 minutes. There was no missing this. Today is a much wider stage than I have ever heard.
And too the Dartzeel, its the most quiet component I have ever had. No noise itself. So quiet out the speakers. When I first turned it on, I thought I had wired it wrong. I looked over all my cabling and saw nothing wrong. But there was no sound. I figured, what the heck and turned on a song. Out came music.
The Dartzeel also showed me how much bloat the 845 I have presents in the midrange. It made me revisit the internal ground fault I have never been able to reaolve. I then became frustrated when my tech told me the amp has internal shorting that will require a few thousand $$$ worth of time to sort. And I still have the midrange issues. So the 845 sit on a shelf in the basement.
Similar threads
