Why does burning in work
- Thread starter Loheswaran
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As I have often said, some burn-in physical effects are real and can be measured with adequate instrumentation. However, the question is how can we correlate that minimal physical difference, that according to official audio science is orders of magnitude bellow the threshold of audibility, with perceived sound quality. IMHO until we have such model burn-in mostly a religious war between believers and non-believers. 
Audio science is in many aspects in its childhood or perhaps even in the dark ages. Warm-up of electronics is a much less controversial aspect than burn-in and IMHO induces nigh and day subjective differences. However I have never seen a good article, that could be considered a reference on the subject, correlating detailed measurements with subjective sound differences. As always, IMHO and YMMV.
Audio science is in many aspects in its childhood or perhaps even in the dark ages. Warm-up of electronics is a much less controversial aspect than burn-in and IMHO induces nigh and day subjective differences. However I have never seen a good article, that could be considered a reference on the subject, correlating detailed measurements with subjective sound differences. As always, IMHO and YMMV.
I used to think burn in was needed on everything, but now I'm not so sure.
12 months ago, my bespoke psus to tt and phono seemed to need 80-100 hours to sound of their best.
Other than these, my other changes have worked the moment I installed them.
Including Stacore isolation platforms, SR Black fuses, RevOPods footers to my Zus, Sablon Bocchino PC and IC, and Tubulus Argentus DB25 cbls.
12 months ago, my bespoke psus to tt and phono seemed to need 80-100 hours to sound of their best.
Other than these, my other changes have worked the moment I installed them.
Including Stacore isolation platforms, SR Black fuses, RevOPods footers to my Zus, Sablon Bocchino PC and IC, and Tubulus Argentus DB25 cbls.
I'm not saying that's appropriate, and even if the thread was on the subject I'm not sure I'd participate. However, it's absolutely true and pretty much a proven fact to me that differences in sound can be imagined to some degree. I've sent people cables to test for over 6 years now and have some data on the subject. However, I've found most times if differences are heard, they are real.
As a maker of cables I find it difficult to NOT test the popular theory that differences heard in cables and burn-in are all made-up, as I'm not a fan of sticking my head in the sand... I want to know what's actually true to the best of my ability. I mention this just so reports of burn-in are taken in proper context, there are likely to be exaggerations and outright imaginary things reported, but that doesn't mean all burn-in reports are born out of an overactive imagination and the result of bias.
That said, I have data that burn-in of wire is a very real phenomenon, both the measurements I posted as well as correlations between customer's experiences as well as customer reactions when shipping cables that are burned vs not burned. Descriptions of burn-in sound characteristics match closely and customer reactions to the cables also significantly change depending on whether they receive cables that are burned-in vs not.
As a maker of cables I find it difficult to NOT test the popular theory that differences heard in cables and burn-in are all made-up, as I'm not a fan of sticking my head in the sand... I want to know what's actually true to the best of my ability. I mention this just so reports of burn-in are taken in proper context, there are likely to be exaggerations and outright imaginary things reported, but that doesn't mean all burn-in reports are born out of an overactive imagination and the result of bias.
That said, I have data that burn-in of wire is a very real phenomenon, both the measurements I posted as well as correlations between customer's experiences as well as customer reactions when shipping cables that are burned vs not burned. Descriptions of burn-in sound characteristics match closely and customer reactions to the cables also significantly change depending on whether they receive cables that are burned-in vs not.
I have problems with the term imagination. If we take the parable of "The Emperor Has No Clothes.'" I suspect everyone new the king was nude. I think people can just be wrong rather than delusional. If someone actually saw clothes on the king, they should see their mental health professional.
We have beat this horse to death on this forum.
We have beat this horse to death on this forum.
I never realised that my question would turn into such a long thread. My question was specific and two-fold:
1. do components measurably
2. do they just carry on in that way hence deterioration
The reason I asked is that given the burn in - does the deterioration continue at the same rate. By way of comparison sports car tyres need warming up - they keep wearing at certain rate - meaning that they perform optimally for a short/fixed period of time and keep wearing (technically until bald). Does that then mean that the burn in/deterioration that goes on at the same rate? Or is it a case that there is the burn in and then it plateaus. Now we all now that very old components in audio systems can have electrolytic capacitors go for instance.
1. do components measurably
2. do they just carry on in that way hence deterioration
The reason I asked is that given the burn in - does the deterioration continue at the same rate. By way of comparison sports car tyres need warming up - they keep wearing at certain rate - meaning that they perform optimally for a short/fixed period of time and keep wearing (technically until bald). Does that then mean that the burn in/deterioration that goes on at the same rate? Or is it a case that there is the burn in and then it plateaus. Now we all now that very old components in audio systems can have electrolytic capacitors go for instance.
According to Vishay some precision resistors measurably change during the fist few hundred hours - typical audiophile burn-in time. I would not be astonished if many components show this type of behavior, but no one cares about it, as it does not affect the equipment performance. It was studied in depth in this case because it is relevant for instrumentation designers, not because of audiophiles. See http://www.vishaypg.com/doc?49568
See http://www.vishaypg.com/doc?49568
Interesting graph, thanks for posting. In most equipment resistor accuracy has no bearing upon perceived sound quality, but there is one prominent exception: discrete R-2R DACs. It would appear that such devices, if built with new parts, will be subject to a considerable deterioration after the first 300-500hrs. Never heard that a manufacturer grades the resistors after a burn in, but of course they may do this without advertising.
+1, really fascinating. We have been wildly experimenting with platforms / footers. There are undeniable mechanical settling "burn in" effects with a remarkable similarity to effects reported from equipment /cable burn in. These experiments are being carried out across a large variety of systems / users.
Also take note of this re XO stability:
Also take note of this re XO stability:
Thanks. I perceive tho art highly intelligent and rather open-minded.
Congratulations on your discoveries. I've been dabbling with these matters for 17 years and have taken things to the utmost extreme regarding platforms, footers, materials, and various methodologies. Superior versions can lead to potentially huge sonic differences while inferior versions cause things to fall flat on their face.
My latest gig started in June of 2017 when I mounted my line conditioners to my custom racking system using a far more extreme method than the prior one. The small passive line conditioners responded with small but distinct audible improvements averaging about every other day and took nearly 18 months to fully settle. But when done the line conditioners were performing at perhaps 3 times their already excellent freestanding performance levels. That installation translates to roughly 250 small but still distinct sonic improvements where each little improvement might equate to a very minor IC cable upgrade or maybe 10 small iimprovements equates to one reasonable and musical IC cable upgrade.
My racking system has already been achieving similar performance levels with my componentry for some time now, but who woulda' thunk that one so-called "accessory" could so dramatically improve the performance levels of another so-called "accessory" ?
One thing worth noting. Mechanical settling-in times and electrical burn-in times are remarkably similar when just scratching the surface. But the more extreme the method for managing mechanical energy, the longer it takes to reach a substantially fuller maturity / substantially greater performance levels. But the sonic benefits are so worth the wait because your playback system's level of musicality will be in uncharted waters.
A few years ago I responded in another forum regarding resonant energy mgmt by stating the following,
I think that sums things up pretty well.
Congratulations on your discoveries. I've been dabbling with these matters for 17 years and have taken things to the utmost extreme regarding platforms, footers, materials, and various methodologies. Superior versions can lead to potentially huge sonic differences while inferior versions cause things to fall flat on their face.
My latest gig started in June of 2017 when I mounted my line conditioners to my custom racking system using a far more extreme method than the prior one. The small passive line conditioners responded with small but distinct audible improvements averaging about every other day and took nearly 18 months to fully settle. But when done the line conditioners were performing at perhaps 3 times their already excellent freestanding performance levels. That installation translates to roughly 250 small but still distinct sonic improvements where each little improvement might equate to a very minor IC cable upgrade or maybe 10 small iimprovements equates to one reasonable and musical IC cable upgrade.
My racking system has already been achieving similar performance levels with my componentry for some time now, but who woulda' thunk that one so-called "accessory" could so dramatically improve the performance levels of another so-called "accessory" ?
One thing worth noting. Mechanical settling-in times and electrical burn-in times are remarkably similar when just scratching the surface. But the more extreme the method for managing mechanical energy, the longer it takes to reach a substantially fuller maturity / substantially greater performance levels. But the sonic benefits are so worth the wait because your playback system's level of musicality will be in uncharted waters.
A few years ago I responded in another forum regarding resonant energy mgmt by stating the following,
"The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt. and extreme forms of vibration mgmt., the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of mechanical energy."
I think that sums things up pretty well.
It seems we're travelling similar paths. An interesting thing I noticed is playing your system at higher volume levels reduces mechanical settling times. I'm in an industrial area so I can leave my system playing at high volume levels out of office hours.
Would you mind if I contact you directly to exchange notes? We may learn something from each other.
Would you mind if I contact you directly to exchange notes? We may learn something from each other.
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