Why, oh why, does vinyl continue to blow away digital?

[hopkins]

Until fairly recently, 99% of my I listening was with "digital". Lately I have been purchasing some mono LPs that are not available in mono in digital format. I also recently purchased a mono cartridge (great "upgrade"). I also now listen more frequently to stereo LPs.

My turntable is far from "What's Best" (Technics SL-1200GR) and it plays through my DAC (using the M2TECH ADC). But even so, it is immediately obvious that "vintage" LPs can sound really good!

They can sound more dynamic and lively, and offer better resolution than their digital counterparts. Instruments can have more "presence". You don't need to be a highly trained listener to figure that out.

So if vinyl sounds pleasant due to added distortion why is that record companies don't offer digital recordings with added distortion that people would find pleasant? Are there any DSP systems out there that can introduce these distortions? If there are, do people use them? I don't think so.

Maybe things are not so simple....

 

[Carlos269]

Until fairly recently, 99% of my I listening was with "digital". Lately I have been purchasing some mono LPs that are not available in mono in digital format. I also recently purchased a mono cartridge (great "upgrade"). I also now listen more frequently to stereo LPs.

My turntable is far from "What's Best" (Technics SL-1200GR) and it plays through my DAC (using the M2TECH ADC). But even so, it is immediately obvious that "vintage" LPs can sound really good!

They can sound more dynamic and lively, and offer better resolution than their digital counterparts.

So if vinyl sounds pleasant due to added distortion why is that record companies don't offer digital recordings with added distortion that people would find pleasant? Are there any DSP systems out there that can introduce these distortions? If there are, do people use them? I don't think so.

Maybe things are not so simple....

DAC with "Vinyl Emulator?"

Playing with a Weiss 501. It has a ton of DSP related settings from room EQ, headphones, Loudness, cross talk, DeEssing etc. Having a vinyl emulator I think is interesting to say the least. Just thought I’d throw this out there for comment in case anyone is interested- especially you guys...

forum.psaudio.com

 

[hopkins]

DAC with "Vinyl Emulator?"

Playing with a Weiss 501. It has a ton of DSP related settings from room EQ, headphones, Loudness, cross talk, DeEssing etc. Having a vinyl emulator I think is interesting to say the least. Just thought I’d throw this out there for comment in case anyone is interested- especially you guys...

forum.psaudio.com

It exists but is anybody using this? If it were anything else than a gimmick I would assume that every DAC would offer this.

 

[Carlos269]

It exists but is anybody using this? If it were anything else than a gimmick I would assume that every DAC would offer this.

You missed the meat of the post from the Weiss manual:

4.4 The Weiss Vinyl Emulator
The playback quality of vinyl records often times is viewed as being superior to digital based playback. The technical quality of a vinyl reproduction usually is inferior to a decent digital playback, though.
Obviously many listeners like the specific deterioration the vinyl playback chain applies to the music.
The playback system in a record player is a fairly complex mechanical system with many variables contributing to the sound. If one likes to emulate such a system in the digital domain the most important mechanisms
have to be analyzed and emulated.
Some of the sub-systems and parameters involved are:
• motor driving the platter
• needle geometry
• groove geometry
• playback speed
• position of the tonearm
• masses, rigidity of the various mechanical parts (pick-up, tonearm, bearings, … )
• mechanical to electrical transfer function of the pick-up
• angles of the needle relative to the record
• contact pressure of the needle
• skating effect
One approach to emulate the sonic footprint of a record player would be to simulate all those mechanical/electrical parts one by one for a complete transfer function.
While this is possible to some extent it is fairly complex to implement and also to measure the parts such that their influences are gained isolated from all other effects.
It is simpler and more effective to synthesize the various effects caused by those sub-systems.
These effects are, mainly:
• specific frequency response
• specific distortion patterns
• specific additional resonance frequencies
• specific noise at various frequencies
• specific crosstalk between left and right channels
• specific effects caused by the RIAA emphasis
• specific amplitude modulation effects
The key to a good emulation is to achieve the ”right” amounts and characteristics and sequence of all those effects. Hence the word ”specific”. In the DAC501/DAC502 we implemented a processing chain for the vinyl emulation like this:


Screenshot (4)962×482 116 KB


The blocks are self - explanatory, except COLOUR_STREAM, which consists of noise generators, resonance generators and amplitude modulator.

 

[hopkins]

You missed the meat of the post from the Weiss manual:

4.4 The Weiss Vinyl Emulator
The playback quality of vinyl records often times is viewed as being superior to digital based playback. The technical quality of a vinyl reproduction usually is inferior to a decent digital playback, though.
Obviously many listeners like the specific deterioration the vinyl playback chain applies to the music.
The playback system in a record player is a fairly complex mechanical system with many variables contributing to the sound. If one likes to emulate such a system in the digital domain the most important mechanisms
have to be analyzed and emulated.
Some of the sub-systems and parameters involved are:
• motor driving the platter
• needle geometry
• groove geometry
• playback speed
• position of the tonearm
• masses, rigidity of the various mechanical parts (pick-up, tonearm, bearings, … )
• mechanical to electrical transfer function of the pick-up
• angles of the needle relative to the record
• contact pressure of the needle
• skating effect
One approach to emulate the sonic footprint of a record player would be to simulate all those mechanical/electrical parts one by one for a complete transfer function.
While this is possible to some extent it is fairly complex to implement and also to measure the parts such that their influences are gained isolated from all other effects.
It is simpler and more effective to synthesize the various effects caused by those sub-systems.
These effects are, mainly:
• specific frequency response
• specific distortion patterns
• specific additional resonance frequencies
• specific noise at various frequencies
• specific crosstalk between left and right channels
• specific effects caused by the RIAA emphasis
• specific amplitude modulation effects
The key to a good emulation is to achieve the ”right” amounts and characteristics and sequence of all those effects. Hence the word ”specific”. In the DAC501/DAC502 we implemented a processing chain for the vinyl emulation like this:


Screenshot (4)962×482 116 KB


The blocks are self - explanatory, except COLOUR_STREAM, which consists of noise generators, resonance generators and amplitude modulator.

Thanks but I don't care to read the manual! I have no interest in using this myself. My question remains: if some suggest that analog is pleasant due to added distortions, why have these not been introduced into modern productions and why are people not using similar devices?

Dave McNair tells us that he prefers listening to analog even though digital is more "accurate" and he attributes this to the noise generated by the cutting process. So why not simply add this through DSP and call it a day?

 

[Carlos269]

Thanks but I don't care to read the manual! I have no interest in using this myself. My question remains: if some suggest that analog is pleasant due to added distortions, why have these not been introduced into modern productions and why are people not using similar devices?

Don’t be dismissive, that information is from Daniel Weiss, one of the preeminent authorities in digital audio. Daniel has been there from his day when he designed and built a custom modular DAW for the Harmonia Mundi classical record label. Daniel knows from experience and technical knowledge what he speaks of and provides a good summary of the various point that myself and others have made on this thread.

 

[hopkins]

Don’t be dismissive, that information is from Daniel Weiss, one of the preeminent authorities in digital audio. Daniel has been there from his day when he designed and built a custom modular DAW for the Harmonia Mundi classical record label. Daniel knows from experience and technical knowledge what he speaks of and provides a good summary of the various point that myself and others have made on this thread.

I am not being dismissive of Weiss. You are missing the point.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Thanks but I don't care to read the manual! I have no interest in using this myself. My question remains: if some suggest that analog is pleasant due to added distortions, why have these not been introduced into modern productions and why are people not using similar devices?

Dave McSnare tells us that he prefers listening to analog even though digital is more "accurate" and he attributes this to the noise generated by the cutting process. So why not simply add this through DSP and call it a day?

Be respectful his name is Dave McNair and I would listen to a Grammy Winning Audio Engineer over the likes of armchair reviewers and engineers. https://davemcnairmastering.com/

 

[hopkins]

Be respectful his name is Dave McNair and I would listen to a Grammy Winning Audio Engineer over the likes of armchair reviewers and engineers. https://davemcnairmastering.com/

Take a chill pill!

Simple typo (now corrected). I am respectful of his opinion. He explained why he prefers analog. I am not challenging his preference!

He hypothesized that a specific noise introduced by the cutting process explained this preference. Hence my questions.

 

[Mcsnare]

Thanks but I don't care to read the manual! I have no interest in using this myself. My question remains: if some suggest that analog is pleasant due to added distortions, why have these not been introduced into modern productions and why are people not using similar devices?

Dave McNair tells us that he prefers listening to analog even though digital is more "accurate" and he attributes this to the noise generated by the cutting process. So why not simply add this through DSP and call it a day?

To model the complexity of vinyl would be an extremely arduous process that may or may not result in something good. Daniel Weiss is a brilliant designer but he left out the entire part of the equation that is the cutting process.
The cutting process involves MANY nonlinear, dynamic aspects that would make the coding incredibly involved and processing that code’s reaction to input into an almost chaotic state.
Just for starters a Neumann or Westrex cutting head requires about 29 db of global negative feedback that is derived from the duplicate motion sensing coils in the head. And that’s just for starters.

 

[Mcsnare]

Thanks but I don't care to read the manual! I have no interest in using this myself. My question remains: if some suggest that analog is pleasant due to added distortions, why have these not been introduced into modern productions and why are people not using similar devices?

Dave McNair tells us that he prefers listening to analog even though digital is more "accurate" and he attributes this to the noise generated by the cutting process. So why not simply add this through DSP and call it a day?

It’s more than just noise but I believe that is an important part, even on a very well plated and pressed (silent) record.

 

[Mcsnare]

Be respectful his name is Dave McNair and I would listen to a Grammy Winning Audio Engineer over the likes of armchair reviewers and engineers. https://davemcnairmastering.com/

Well, working on Grammy winning projects doesn’t automatically make an engineer an expert or even indicate they are good! It’s more an indication that I’ve been doing it for a long time and that lots of artists trust me to make their project sound just a little bit better.
I had 5 more noms this year but went 0 for 5. I was really hoping to win one in particular: best engineered non-classical….maybe next year.

 

[Rexp]

I have reference recordings that sound better in vinyl and others that sound better in digital. Neither sounds more real to me (or the people I work with from my short survey here) just because it is one or the other, it is material dependent. Could be due to the different mastering, recording chain, or any other dozen issues. I can provide examples if you'd like. As such, I pose again the idea that this distinction (analog-digital) doesn't really track well with reality. There is nothing more continuous or natural about analog than digital, it is still stored media using a discrete resolution and an engineered encoding scheme.

As to why analog sounds so good, I have three ideas: a) low order harmonics b) noise and c) fetichism.
a) Low order harmonics are what you get from mechanical systems, and everything in analog is electro-mechanical. These mask away obnoxious higher order modes very effectively to our earing apparatus and are, again, compatible with what you find in a real live music scenario from things that the mics don't pick up, either because they get buried (remember the best mic in the world is about 14 bit resolving...) or because the recording eng deliberately filtered them away by using highly directional mics and other techniques. Effectively analog could be filling in the blanks, with distortion that we find engaging. This is by happy coincidence more than anything.
b) Noise is pleasant. We get nervous in an anechoic chamber. We evolved to take cues from background noise, and seem to be effectively very good at it. To the point where adding given types of noise to recordings makes things more readable for us. If you really think about it, it's perfectly inline with tweaks that audiophiles do all the time. We're just used to confuse certain noise with silence. The start of a crescendo is much more fascinating to me on vinyl that usually on digital, and I'm willing to bet it is because of the noise that my brain doesn't interpret as such, unless I focus on it.
c) Then we come to the last. I'm ok with people pushing back, but I have very little doubt about it. Need to read up on psy studies a bit more to formalize this better. We all know our experiences are brutally filtered and colored by our state of mind. The act of preparing and putting on a record or tape is a ritual just like any other, and it has consequences. It is not for free, it is not convenient, it involves dedication and sacrifice, so it playing with our expectations is just, well, expected. Some people align immediately with the act of just listening. They are not searching for the next track on a stupid screen, they just sit back and lift off. The impact of this might be bigger than we expect of care to admit, at least it is for me the times I tried to analyze it.



I don't think so. The analog process seems to discard a lot of information (a stylus simply can't move fast enough for certain things, it does have inertia; a tape doesn't really record 20kHz cleanly, it is frequency limited), but what it does seems to be so aligned with our internal mechanisms, that we are can still have valid discussions like this one well into the digital age. Encoding something to bits is very efficient and errors are well controlled. We can discuss why a lot of ADCs and DACs simply suck, but if you reverse a) b) and c) you can probably derive a good fist order approximation to my opinion pretty quickly.

Why do a lot of ADCs and DACs simply suck? Given the recording quality makes the biggest difference, the bigger problem seems to be on the ADC side.

 

[Carlos269]

Why do a lot of ADCs and DACs simply suck? Given the recording quality makes the biggest difference, the bigger problem seems to be on the ADC side.

Can you expand and explain why you think they suck? The current technology studio ADC’s and DAC’s are extremely transparent.@McSnare set that in his monitoring of pre and post ADC and DAC the sound was indistinguishable. Maybe you know something that the pros don’t. Please share your insight.

 

[Holmz]

Can you expand and explain why you think they suck? The current technology studio ADC’s and DAC’s are extremely transparent.@McSnare set that in his monitoring of pre and post ADC and DAC the sound was indistinguishable.

If the first ADC in the chain was shot to ‘el -n-back, then one would be A/B the bad ADC against itself in subsequent copies

Maybe you know something that the pros don’t. Please share your insight.

I’ll give it a shot.
In one of the videos they talked about microphones from the 50s and 60s, and how they were coloured and euphonic.

How would we even know what “the REAL sound” was like?
Half the performers, are either dead, or cannot talk, or cannot remember the lyrics.
We only have what those mic captured at the time.

That said, I am sure that the ADC is not the weak link in the recordings. There is a lot of spice and cooking in of the sound that is happening which is not part of an ADC/DAC, and pleanty of places for things to get coloured and flavoured along the way.

 

[tima]

Until fairly recently, 99% of my I listening was with "digital". Lately I have been purchasing some mono LPs that are not available in mono in digital format. I also recently purchased a mono cartridge (great "upgrade"). I also now listen more frequently to stereo LPs.

My turntable is far from "What's Best" (Technics SL-1200GR) and it plays through my DAC (using the M2TECH ADC). But even so, it is immediately obvious that "vintage" LPs can sound really good!

They can sound more dynamic and lively, and offer better resolution than their digital counterparts. Instruments can have more "presence". You don't need to be a highly trained listener to figure that out.

So if vinyl sounds pleasant due to added distortion why is that record companies don't offer digital recordings with added distortion that people would find pleasant? Are there any DSP systems out there that can introduce these distortions? If there are, do people use them? I don't think so.

Maybe things are not so simple....

fascinating

 

[Ron Resnick]

Are there any DSP systems out there that can introduce these distortions?

Then you'd be back to digital!

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, You should not chop up posts and extract snippets out of context.

I do not believe I did. I certainly did not change the essential meaning.

 

[Holmz]

Then you'd be back to digital!

If it was perfect ADC-> stuff —> DAC, then it would not matter how many one used.

(I am thinking like a TT running into some Active XO, which it is done in the digital domain>
or some similar for room correction or DIRAC deal to handle the speakers or room.)

It would be analogue at least in terms of the source.
And we could argue whether an active digital XO makes it a digital system.

^that^ would either be the best of both worlds, or for others be refered to as the system from hell… with all the pops-n-clicks of a TT, and all the badness of digital.

 

[morricab]

Its due to the extra bass energy impaired to analog vinyl playback by the combination of the recording/playback RIAA equalization misalignment and induced by low frequency modulations.

It’s from scientist not pro audio guys. These is simple mathematics.


Instead from calling out for Ralph, why don’t you post an audio recording of your system so that I can point out the excessive bass energy. I have been and will continue to be posting bass heavy songs on my thread and you and others can hear how beautifully my systems reproduce bass without sounding “muddy”.

Audio recordings go a longer ways to making a statement than a bunch of words, on this and other related subjects.

Post in thread 'Sharing a few system videos from last night‘s listening session'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sharing-a-few-system-videos-from-last-night‘s-listening-session.38539/post-973357

I see you still didn’t read the article I posted that explains in part what Mike is referring to. It’s not just extra bass .