ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[morricab]

ok, you're crazy.

honestly; my listening the last 2 nights to the ML3's made me feel like my system was made for them (which was the plan....other than my speakers are not 105db efficiency horns). i'll be especially interested in what a few of my 'tube loving' friends say about that issue when they visit. I see no synergy issues at all. just the irritating noise thing.

the Lamm's are doing what I figured they would do. and it's different than what the big darts do. and that is what I wanted. and I'm too close to the subject to be objective about what that says about me. those that know me well know that my personal system preferences were established by tubed OTL amps, that I view the darTZeel as along those same lines, and that I've always lusted after a set of tube amps to have when I wanted to go that way. so if that is a surprise to you, then I respect that it seems like a conflict to you.

better? worse? different? depends on your personal sonic compass and how you are feeling at that moment. will my system now have the ability to appeal to more people? seems like that is true. so more kindred spirit audio folks will come over and listen with me? I'm for that.

the Lamm's are more 'magical'........would be the term I would use. are they strictly accurate and undistorted? no. and why not have both views.

Well, I wrote a lengthy piece to respond but it got lost somehow. Therefore, only a short one this time. I am reminded of the Stereophile cover in 1994 that stated If either of these amplifiers is RIGHT...the other must be WRONG."

You are in an updated, modernized and rarerfied version of that debate.

Clearly for you to spend significant money on a pair of ML3s indicates that something was gnawing at you...and itch that wasn't being scratched.

I happen to be one who thinks that there is "more right" or "less right" sound that a system can make and that it is not all relativistic preference. That is because we are a quite aware what real acoustic sound is like. Comparisons of audio to wine tasting etc. are not correct because wine has no "real" reference...it is real in and of itself. There preference is everything and reviews of wine are merely guides of what kinds of tastes a wine has to offer...not whether you will like that combination of tastes/smells and there is no right or wrong there...only experience. Audio is a copy of something that was real and being played back...still there is closer and further from the reality of that performance. I happen to think that SET done right is closer (notice I don't say it gets there all the way) to right than other technologies done right...nevermind about either SET or other done wrong...they will be just different flavors of further from real.

Your deep subconscious has likely been working on you that what you have was in some way not all that real to your ear/brain pattern detector. I have experienced this numerous times...and it gnaws until you have to do something about it. I had a situation with a very nice NAT single ended hybrid that was telling one part of my brain what it wanted to hear and the other part was having a cognitive dissonance...it was maddening...so I got rid of it and put in a nice SET and went "ahhhh".

 

[morricab]

Mike already mentioned he had Tenor 75 which is better than all the tube gear on this forum

Yes and no. It is in someways but in some important ways it is not.

 

[microstrip]

(...) the only way to eliminate any/all noise would be to shorten the interconnects to 1.5 meters or less from pre to amp. it's already how I want it now, so for me next case. moving the amps or preamp is not even a consideration. (...)

Mike,

Sorry, but IMHO this conclusion looks technically unacceptable . If a system is really absolutely noise free with IC's of 1.5 meters, we should be able to duplicate this performance with longer interconnects, particularly considering the technical excellence of your units and the care you took with power supply and noise. The ML3 has moderate gain, ~23 dB , cable induced noise should be inaudible.

 

[PeterA]

Unfortunately no, they are everywhere nowadays. But I hate processed air - I only switch air conditioning on when strictly needed. We have a moderate climate, but usually tubes make air conditioning during summer almost mandatory.

As do the highly biased Class A SS amps from Pass Labs. I have learned to endure the suffering from the heat.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Yep, i’m REALLY looking forwards to summer in my audio room (no windows) w my NATs consuming 1000W to pump out 70W, four white hot 211s, and 8 smaller tubes.
Actively considering my mechanical ventilation options.
—
A pr of interesting horns have got me curious, but the need for bi amping is putting me off. The heat, oh the heat!
—
Why did I give up SS again? LOL

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,

Sorry, but IMHO this conclusion looks technically unacceptable . If a system is really absolutely noise free with IC's of 1.5 meters, we should be able to duplicate this performance with longer interconnects, particularly considering the technical excellence of your units and the care you took with power supply and noise. The ML3 has moderate gain, ~23 dB , cable induced noise should be inaudible.

I'm not in a position to agree or disagree, and would differ to David and his experience over multiple systems of trouble shooting with these and other LAMM SET amplifiers. and possibly David's comments to me on this subject were referring to cases where there was some hum (and it had been sufficiently diagnosed) that the solution then was shorter (1.5 m) interconnects, and that maybe there were cases were there was zero hum and therefore shorter interconnects were not necessary.

i'm now in my 3rd day of ownership and so can't claim any sort of solid personal knowledge.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ok, let’s go in a little different direction. Mike, do you have a pretty good aural memory? Can you reliably remember eg what your Rockport Sirius sounded like upon playing various lps, and make a reasonable comparison to your NVS?
If you can, then tell us how it’s playing out so far on recollection of Tenor OTL, Darts and Lamms.
My take on all this is that despite you on balance preferring yr Darts to the Tenors, enough magic was in those amps that at the back of yr mind at the very least remained an itch that needed to be scratched, and hence the ML3s are today in yr system.
If I’m right, and this itch gets comfortably scratched some 10+ years later, the Lamms may really provide more than a simple alternative to the Darts, but become (over time) the natural choice, yr automatic go-to option.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Why are members trying to be armchair psychologists, instead of listening to what Mike actually is writing?

Marc, not everyone has to love tubes to vindicate your love (and my love) of tubes.

 

[dminches]

Why are members trying to be armchair psychologists, instead of listening to what Mike actually is writing?

Marc, not everyone has to love tubes to vindicate your love (and my love) of tubes.

+1

Mike seems to be on trial here. He wanted to add the Lamms to see if he enjoys them. What does that put everyone in such a tizz?

 

[microstrip]

Why are members trying to be armchair psychologists, instead of listening to what Mike actually is writing? (...)

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ron, c’mon now .
I’ve just been to Paul of Z Axis Audio, his system runs w SS Concert Fidelity amps (pre has 1 tube) and I loved it.
We heard the Cessaro Liszts in an all tubes 211s based system, and you couldn’t pay me enough to take it home.
I’ve heard SS sound brutally unappealing fronting SS-liking Apogees, and tubes absolutely nail it on other Apogees.
So I’m actually a bit amp agnostic now, especially after the experience at Paul.
Indeed there’s probably only half a dozen tube amps I like. And half a dozen SS ones as well.
A score draw.
—
But if you expect this thread to stay with “great Mike”, “what a find Mike”, “how is it today Mike?”, then you must think we’re a pretty sycophantic bunch .
And if Mike thought these would be the only responses, then he misjudged too.
All I can say is that Mike on numerous occasions has kinda said his Darts do it all, have a tubey character, and want for nothing. But also he has a few times recounted his positive Tenors experience, has trialled those First Amps, the Bernings, and now has bought the Lamms.
This sounds much more than sheer curiosity, and more like a yearning for SOMETHING missing from his current Darts sound, something he had back in his Tenors days, something he heard in the First Amps and Bernings, and definitely something he heard in the Lamms at DDKs when he auditioned the AS.
Hence the purchase.
Whether he keeps the Lamms or sells them on is of no consequence to me, but I can surely have an opinion, and try to read his mind.
Otherwise we’ll all end up with a forum that wanker P Breuninger would approve of, slavish adoration at the altar.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Why are members trying to be armchair psychologists, instead of listening to what Mike actually is writing?

Marc, not everyone has to love tubes to vindicate your love (and my love) of tubes.

what i'm doing is no different than our esteemed member Tang having three great turntables already, and then adding a fourth great turntable. the controversial solid state verses tubes question being the only difference. no one questioned Tang's judgement, although people had their preferences among the turntables.

but collecting turntables is cool. having the (debatably) ultimate solid state amp, then adding the (debatably) ultimate tube amp somehow breaks some sort of code. gets us out of our comfort zone. could anyone do that? well, yes, they can. am I surprised by the reactions? no; i'm never surprised. amused....yes.

 

[microstrip]

+1

Mike seems to be on trial here. He wanted to add the Lamms to see if he enjoys them. What does that put everyone in such a tizz?

IMHO no one is putting anyone in trial, this is a very interesting thread. See that even you did not resist to write your interpretation of why Mike got the Lamm's!

 

[853guy]

If I’m right, and this itch gets comfortably scratched some 10+ years later, the Lamms may really provide more than a simple alternative to the Darts, but become (over time) the natural choice, yr automatic go-to option.

is it any more complicated than variances of that same thing? there are more permanent consequences in terms of asset allocation, but beyond that it's shades of of the same. sure; I had an itch, I've written that numerous times. but; it was the plan from the start to have speakers that could accommodate modestly powered tube amplifiers.

Why are members trying to be armchair psychologists, instead of listening to what Mike actually is writing?

Marc, not everyone has to love tubes to vindicate your love (and my love) of tubes.

Binary thinking is an unfortunate reality of much of this hobby. The preference for vinyl as opposed to digital, for SS as opposed to tubes, for dynamic speakers as opposed to horns - and vice verse - has dominated discussion for years, and will likely thus continue.

Yet I personally have a lot of sympathy for Mike’s intention. My intention is to have one main system based around SETs and horns, and two “lesser” systems based around ESL57s and small dynamic speakers respectively.

I could claim that one was superior to the other(s) in certain aspects of playback, but ultimately, it’s really no different than enjoying a good Bordeaux relative to a good gewürztraminer d'Alsace, or a great steak relative to great sushi - even in as much as we appreciate the very different way in the which they might bring us pleasure. And surely, isn't part of the pleasure in the fact they're not like one another?

Getting the best out of those respective systems however will have much to do with implementation of each, and the appreciation that in order to do so, attempting to make one more like the other may cause more harm than good.

Best,

853guy

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, you’re not on trial. If you are it’s a very friendly trial w guys that respect your journey. For my part, I actually don’t subscribe to the multi component/system paradigm.
Tang and Christian w many tts, arms, carts.
Rudolph w his LAs and Genesis.
You w SS and SETs
Ked’s dream of mixing horns, planars.
I love my gear, but my mind can’t handle more than one tt, amp, spkr etc.
My mindset is that the best tt will mean I use that one all the time, others gathering dust.
If SETs sound great at the start of Stairway To Heaven as Page and Plant lilt away, and SS great as Bonham and Paul-Jones kick in, I’d rather find the best amp and play the whole track thru that amp. Ditto speakers etc.
Also critically I don’t have the funds to buy on a whim.
But choice/spice of life, I get it .

 

[BMCG]

having the (debatably) ultimate solid state amp, then adding the (debatably) ultimate tube amp somehow breaks some sort of code. gets us out of our comfort zone. could anyone do that? well, yes, they can. am I surprised by the reactions? no; i'm never surprised. amused....yes.

Whatever the merits of the two amps in question as ultimates...I could readily consider alternates but that's secondary....

what is clear is that the two pieces of kit represent compelling renditions of the State of the Art with regard to specific signal boosting topologies....

Both of which are now "housed" within a context that is similarly SOTA.

So it intrigues as to how Mike will discern the relative merits, differences and weaknesses...

personally I am impressed that he has the motivation/time/wherewithal to assess the aural pictures with such rigor.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Oh, one thing that Mike can’t be accused of, is not being crazy rigorous .

 

[microstrip]

Binary thinking is an unfortunate reality of much of this hobby. (...)

We are used to binary thinking, but the DartZeel NH18 / Lamm ML3 pairing exceeds our binary thinking. This system is completely out of our binary "zones of comfort" as you enumerated them, and this calls for a lot of speculative thought. I am not participating in the subjective part of it, but if I had not seen the photos I would be tempted to say No, it is not possible ...

 

[gian60]

I am sure that some recording will sound better with Dart and others with ML3,but not than one is better than other,like some recording are wonderful with Atlas and others are better with Koetsu,
so Mike enjoy to have both,like i enjoy to have Atlas and Koetsu

 

[ALF]

so why did you sell or trade in the ml3s, alf?

...ML3.1s