ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458
- Thread starter Mike Lavigne
- Start date
Mike, first let me congratulate you on your new purchase. You certainly don't stand still, and many hear enjoy reading about your system details which you so willingly share. Thanks for that.
I have a question regarding the noise level. Can you hear it at the listening seat with the normal gain setting with no music playing? If so, then you may think it does not intrude when the music is playing, but that level of noise I would think is certainly masking some low level information, especially in a high resolution system such as yours. I have found that one does not know what is missing until he lowers the noise floor and suddenly hears new information.
I am a bit surprised by your decision to buy these amps for a different flavor on occasion with some music. You have written in other threads that you want to stay away from multiple tables/arms because you have done that and want to simply listen to what you think is a "best" combination and not mess around with alternatives. This decision seems to counter that. Can you explain a bit more about what to me seems like a change in attitude?
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
.....or is it Yang and Ying? (I would have used 'Clash of the Titans' as a thread title but it's taken.)
(I apologize to those who already know my story/rationalizations
yet; for whatever reason I continue to think about owning a set of excellent tube amps. and I've lusted after a few of them. I don't need a tube amp that sounds like my big darts. I want an SET that does the whole purity and inner touch, magic, super holographic, thing. the big darts have minimalist parts count, and zero global feedback. and so those are important in a tube amp too. and it would help if the amp were linear at the frequency extremes (rare in an SET). i'm lucky in that my speakers are friendly to an SET (with 20+ watts even in my large room) since they are 97db, 7 ohm, and the bass is powered below 40 hz. and even though the deep bass is powered, it takes it's signal from the main amplifiers to allow the bass to be 'of a piece' with the gestalt of the main amps.
so last week I went and purchased a set of Lamm ML3 Signature mono blocks. it ticks all the boxes, I've heard it at shows multiple times, I've heard it twice at Steve's (Williams) house, and I heard it at David's (ddk) house too. except for David's house, all the rest were not quite as friendly a speaker situation as I have. I've pretty much loved it's sound every time. it does have it's own character, but it's one I love. if there is a tube amp out there more worthy of sitting next to my big darts, i'm not sure what that might be. maybe the Kagura's, but it's not an SET. and it needs tube rolling to be it's best; i'd rather avoid that part. it's more money too. and it's likely more 'like' the 458's than the ML3's are too. and honestly I have a feel for the sound of the ML3's and do not for the Kagura's. maybe if I did that would have been my target. i'm sure there are another 5 or 10 other tube amps which could have tickled my fancy that were not on my radar.
the ML3's will bring me a distinctly different musical viewpoint.
today I had some visitors, and we played one track where the big darts hit a 212 watt peak on a drum solo. not common, but it happens. obviously the ML3's cannot do stuff like that. so it will be limited in going to warp 9 mode. yet I know that the ML3's do space and can be quite dynamic for most music. and I have plenty of choices to stay away from the big boom stuff, or I live with a bit of distortion. I know this will not be a plug and play proposition. I will need time to see what I need to do to optimize the ML3's in my system. I will use the dart pre which is optimally single ended. I have a 7 meter set of Silent Source Signature RCA's I will use between the ML3's and the dart pre. to begin with I will use my EA speaker cables, but I am open to other speaker cables to find the right balance (likely ddk will have some good recs for me). my plan is to move any grounding connections back and forth between the amps (likely ddk will want to strangle me
these ML3 Signatures are 'used' but were sent to Lamm in NYC to be checked over before I got them and passed 'as new'. I also purchased a set of 4 SRA (Silent Running Audio) Virginia Class platforms made specifically for the ML3's. the platforms arrived yesterday (I've set them up below, waiting for amplifiers), the amps will be here by Wednesday. I will listen and report first impressions.
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Beautiful room and quite a collection of gear.
I have heard your name from Priaptor a few times since he also owns an MSB Select DAC. You might want to ask his opinion on speaker wire that I turned him onto.
Well, call me crazy but I see putting a Lamm ML3 in your system as a complete 180 degree change in direction from a Dart 458. You can talk about it's "tube like" characteristics all you want, I have heard and ain't buying it...neither did Michael Fremer...hell your title to this thread says it all. Please explain how this fits into the direction you already were going because to most of us I think it looks like a sea change. Not that it is a problem if that is the case...it is OK to admit the Lamms are more musical ;-).
this post speaks to the degree of noise somewhat.
and the noise is not related to volume gain. it's present when the preamp is muted. and in very low SPL passages....and stays constant.
my other comment would be that an SET is never going to have a noise floor like my dart 458's. it's not what they do. yet, I agree that any noise will cover musical nuance. so it becomes a question of how low you can get the noise to reach a satisfying point where noise is not an issue to what the amp does. the lowest noise is not always the best sound. but all other things being equal lower noise is best. right now on some very low passages I can hear that noise/hum. but my opinion is that there is no musical consequence to that noise in the listening. it's more an irritant. I've heard worse noise levels in other tubed systems that are considered well sorted out. and my otherwise super low noise floor makes this maybe modest noise issue more significant.
2nd paragraph in my original post in this thread responds to that question 'why'?
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ok, you're crazy.
honestly; my listening the last 2 nights to the ML3's made me feel like my system was made for them (which was the plan....other than my speakers are not 105db efficiency horns). i'll be especially interested in what a few of my 'tube loving' friends say about that issue when they visit. I see no synergy issues at all. just the irritating noise thing.
the Lamm's are doing what I figured they would do. and it's different than what the big darts do. and that is what I wanted. and I'm too close to the subject to be objective about what that says about me. those that know me well know that my personal system preferences were established by tubed OTL amps, that I view the darTZeel as along those same lines, and that I've always lusted after a set of tube amps to have when I wanted to go that way. so if that is a surprise to you, then I respect that it seems like a conflict to you.
better? worse? different? depends on your personal sonic compass and how you are feeling at that moment. will my system now have the ability to appeal to more people? seems like that is true. so more kindred spirit audio folks will come over and listen with me? I'm for that.
the Lamm's are more 'magical'........would be the term I would use. are they strictly accurate and undistorted? no. and why not have both views.
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I'm pretty happy with my Evolution Acoustics speaker cables. but when I figure out my Ethernet verses USB question for my MSB Select II I may want to give the Gobel USB a try if USB is my long term direction. your Gobel stuff certainly looks amazing......and all the reports are excellent.
No disrespect Mike, but the more you extol the virtues of the ML3s as sufficiently different from the Darts, presenting a more unique view on the music (hum problems notwithstanding), the more it remains inconsistent that you’re adamant you won’t go tubes on preamp and phono (Lamms or other brands).
Why settle on half the magic?
Especially if it really is true that whole Lamm is greater than the sum of its parts.
Why settle on half the magic?
Especially if it really is true that whole Lamm is greater than the sum of its parts.
well; the Lamm's are up now, and are the new toy; the darts will be up later and then I will talk about them. the title of the thread has both.
a bunch of people saying that the ML3's are reduced by not having the LL1.1's does not make it correct. that has yet to play out.....at least for me.
there is plenty of things the Lamm's 'don't' do that I like.....and the darts do perfectly.
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I think this is too harsh. I do not see a 180 degree change in direction. I am not a part of the "most of us" to which you refer.
I see simply the creation of an alternative, so that, depending on Mike's mood and his musical choice of the moment, he can choose between vanilla ice cream and vanilla/chocolate/strawberry ice cream.
I am planning for myself three of such alternatives: 1) in amplifiers -- high-power 833 SET versus "semi-hybrid" Alieno LTD 250, and 2) in cartridges/tonearms --ZYX UNIverse Premium on SME 3012R versus Benz-Micro LP S on Schröder LT, and 3) in tape sources -- Studer A820 versus UHA Ultima 2 with OPS.
All anyone has ever heard from me is tubes, tubes, tubes, but I do not think too many people are going faint when I order an amplifier the current amplification side of which on the output stage is solid-state.
As someone who has been CJ preamp (tube) and Class A amp (SS) for nearly 10 years and with no desire to change (ie, am not going all tube or all SS, and do not think about 'half the magic' at all)...if Mike has found a consistency in his goals by adding a purity of alternative amplification with the ML3s which he can use to substitute into the rest of his system where he values all of the other components contribution 'as is'...i cannot see this one change as inconsistent. It is simply an alternative purity of amplification in an otherwise fully matured system.
No disrespect, Marc, but what principle of logic is Mike violating here?
Some people like less sugar in their coffee than you do. Are they committing a logical inconsistency there?
LoL. I love your comment Mr.Lavigne.
Think of it this way. The forum was a bit sleepy and you are great at waking people up.
Kind regards,
Tang
Ron, there’s not a ton of logic in many of the choices we make. I’m simply proposing that if Mike hears unique things w the Lamm power amps, it seems consistent he’d hear “more” unique things going to an all-tubes chain.
Hey, I have no skin in this game. I’m a total convert to all tubes in my amps starting 2013, but have no criticism of those who choose SS. Mike going all Darts has been an exemplary choice for him.
But to want some tubes magic with the ML3 and getting a lot, just why wouldn’t one to extend this to the pre?
Hey, I have no skin in this game. I’m a total convert to all tubes in my amps starting 2013, but have no criticism of those who choose SS. Mike going all Darts has been an exemplary choice for him.
But to want some tubes magic with the ML3 and getting a lot, just why wouldn’t one to extend this to the pre?
I think Mike has been tortured enough on the tube preamp issue.
Mike, please let us know when you resolve the low level hum issue and how you accomplished it. It may not be that long when I add the tube power amp topology option in my system later this summer.
Mike, please let us know when you resolve the low level hum issue and how you accomplished it. It may not be that long when I add the tube power amp topology option in my system later this summer.
Sometimes I think anything worth doing is worth over-doing. Other times I think it is possible to have too much of a good thing.
No disrespect, Marc, but what principle of logic is Mike violating here?
Some people like less sugar in their coffee than you do. Are they committing a logical inconsistency there?
Hilarious.
The best way to diagnose the amps is isolating them from the system. Disconnect the signal cables, insert two shorting plugs in the inputs and switch them on. If you do not have any noise on the speakers you are safe. But if you have noise or hum in this situation you should check the tubes and amplifiers - for example check if the noise level and signature is similar in both amplifiers.
IMHO using balanced cables in your current system is not recommended. Although we do not have technical reviews of the new Dartzeel preamplfier as far as I know they do not use output balancing transformers anymore in the new preamplfier. Lamm amplfiers have XLRs with shorted pin 1 and 3, this means you are driving the ground with a low impedance active signal - not a good solution, particularly with XLR cables, that usually have higher impedance in the grounding lines than most non balanced cables.
Tubes in summer? My distributor told me that usually people sell their tubes in summer, because of heat.
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