ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[spiritofmusic]

GMKF, Ron will soon be taking you up on your inappropriate use of the apostrophe .

 

[Kingsrule]

no tube rolling for me. I still have a stock of 'expensive' tubes from my Lampi encounter, don't need to add any more. one main attraction of the ML3 was to leave that behind. I like it as it is. now if Vladimir from Lamm recommends a different tube that would be different.

Yes, and I have a bridge for sale....LOL

 

[GMKF]

Fixed. Thanks.

Let us see how Ron gets along with German grammar.... The worst in the world

 

[caesar]

Mike, Congrats!

I have heard Lamm gear turn the most sterile, un-listenable speakers into something that sounds like music!

Obviously, Lamm will add a lot of that tube texture and harmonic richness that all of us tube lovers crave. Yet I also remember (possibly incorrectly) that you always strove for "neutrality" in your system.

What is your philosophy for mixing and matching various components to get it right? Where do you like more "neutral" and where do you like more "warmth" and harmonic integrity?

 

[caesar]

Lamm aficionados, please clarify one thing for me:

I was always under the impression that despite making most sublime music in virtually every system, Lamm has a "darkish" character, and that the highs were not fully extended on all systems and combinations.

First, is this correct, or is this myth? And if the highs are not fully extended, is it true for both amps and preamps, or only some?

Thanks

 

[Steve williams]

Lamm aficionados, please clarify one thing for me:

I was always under the impression that despite making most sublime music in virtually every system, Lamm has a "darkish" character, and that the highs were not fully extended on all systems and combinations.

First, is this correct, or is this myth? And if the highs are not fully extended, is it true for both amps and preamps, or only some?

Thanks

Myth

 

[Ron Resnick]

Mike, still curious re yr move to SETs as a “parallel” listening experience.
Can you imagine using the Lamms predominantly on the part of yr collection that you feel they’re most suited to?
Ie on material that benefits most from the reflective, “interior lit” sound that SETs are really good at, vocals, piano, strings, small jazz groups.
Or can you see yourself listening across a wider swathe of recordings to get an “alternative illumination”, pop, big band, symphonic, 80s synths, electronic/dance.
For me, going first the the Hovland HP200 tubed preamp a decade ago was my first taste of this alternative, interior lit view on music, taken all the way by going Audion SETs 845 monos, and now beyond all the way w my all Nat tubes amp chain, 70W 211s.
For me I’m never likely to swap the inner lit/reveal of SETs for the floodlit uniformity of SS.

Give the guy a chance to plug them in first.

 

[spiritofmusic]

What brand of fuse would you recommend, Ron?

 

[rockitman]

no tube rolling for me. I still have a stock of 'expensive' tubes from my Lampi encounter, don't need to add any more. one main attraction of the ML3 was to leave that behind. I like it as it is. now if Vladimir from Lamm recommends a different tube that would be different.

I don't believe it is recommended to roll tubes with Lamms. There are few if any options on the Lamm LP1 sig phono (which you need now lol) from my experience. I think that may be the case with the ML3's.

 

[Ron Resnick]

What brand of fuse would you recommend, Ron?

Hahaha! I think that, like me, fuses are not a tweak which attracts Mike’s interest. But, to answer your question, the Ultimate Beeswax SHD fuse, of course!

(I actually have no interest in tube rolling, either. I have, nonetheless, purchased some vintage tubes for the Io just in case I have some noise issue with very low output MC cartridges and I have no choice but to solve it with vintage tubes. But if I have no noise issue those tubes will stay in their boxes.)

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, Congrats!

thanks.

I have heard Lamm gear turn the most sterile, un-listenable speakers into something that sounds like music!

Obviously, Lamm will add a lot of that tube texture and harmonic richness that all of us tube lovers crave. Yet I also remember (possibly incorrectly) that you always strove for "neutrality" in your system.

if you read my original post and subsequent answers, I'm not looking for another 'dart 458' type 'no artifact yet natural' musical viewpoint. I want the optimum tube magic I know of, knowing that some character will come through. but to get that and be up to the standards of the rest of my system does require a top performer.

What is your philosophy for mixing and matching various components to get it right? Where do you like more "neutral" and where do you like more "warmth" and harmonic integrity?

my system building philosophy has always been 'get out of the way of the music'. don't add color, then add more color to balance. then you are never throwing away information in the name of balance. so in this environment, I expect to need to find the right cables (speaker and interconnects) to allow the ML3's to fit. it might take some time and advice. it could require having different speaker adjustments, but likely not. I've had other tube amps in the system and I never felt I needed to do that. but I'm open to it and my system works that way.

I'm not trying to get the ML3's to sound the same as the big darts, I want them to sound like ML3's and that musical viewpoint.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Lamm aficionados, please clarify one thing for me:

I was always under the impression that despite making most sublime music in virtually every system, Lamm has a "darkish" character, and that the highs were not fully extended on all systems and combinations.

First, is this correct, or is this myth? And if the highs are not fully extended, is it true for both amps and preamps, or only some?

Thanks

I guess I'm one of these now.

I agree on the 'dark' character, but not on the highs being stunted. but to me the darkness is a matter of system balance. I've heard the ML3 sound a bit dark, and heard them sound perfectly balanced in tonal hue. I relate it to my experience 7 years ago when I had Transparent Opus MM speaker cables, which I loved, on my MM3 speakers. they were very sexy on the bass, but were a bit dark sounding. then I tried Evolution Acoustics DRSC (double run speaker cables) and it was amazing how much more open and lighter the music was. like you turned on a light. I'm not labeling the Opus MM as dark, but in the context of my dart 108 amp and MM3's it was dark, the EA speaker cable brought it back to right.

read Fremer's review of the ML3 and he speaks to how sensitive it was to cables, and in particular speaker cables.

and how does one know it's dark, unless you have a way to hear a more correct tonal balance. in my case, I got one.....but don't expect them to sound the same in that regard.

and I expect to have to work a little to get the right balance. this is pretty exotic stuff and the optimal performance will be earned.

 

[Steve williams]

I wouldn't call it dark in my system

I do believe there is better system synergy when paired with an LL1 (1.1) preamp

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike

you got it right on. There is no need to roll tubes in the ML3 (although I must admit I do use an NOS pair of Telefunken ECC803S to replace his 12AX7)

BTW, IIRC there is also a Lamm LL1 for sale in that same place

thanks Steve. when the time comes, i'll check with you on exactly the right Telefunken ECC803S's to get. for now I'll enjoy Vladimir's tubes knowing there is one small spot to roll tubes.

 

[ddk]

Lamm's aren't dark, they might seem that way to people used to hyped top ends, wether from their electronics, cables or both.

david

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

I wouldn't call it dark in my system

Agree!

 

[dminches]

Lamm's aren't dark, they might seem that way to people used to hyped top ends, wether from their electronics, cables or both.

david

I haven't listened much to Lamm equipment but I know exactly what you are talking about. Some people are obsessed with brightness, not realizing it is just their coloring of the music.

 

[DaveyF]

Mike

you got it right on. There is no need to roll tubes in the ML3 (although I must admit I do use an NOS pair of Telefunken ECC803S to replace his 12AX7)

BTW, IIRC there is also a Lamm LL1 for sale in that same place

Steve, what are the stock tubes in the ML3? Usually and IME, most tube manufacturers settle on readily available inexpensive tubes from the standard Russian suppliers. The very same manufacturers then spout that these are the best tubes for their gear. This makes sense, since from their perspective it would not be good business to state that their stock tubes can be easily surpassed and since most NOS tubes are not that easy to source and at reasonable pricing. (Never mind condition etc.,)
However, I have NEVER heard any tube gear that couldn’t be improved by rolling in some great NOS tubes. I’m sure you got a nice upswing when you rolled in the Telefunken...question is what more is available with the other tubes.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Lamm's aren't dark, they might seem that way to people used to hyped top ends, wether from their electronics, cables or both.

david

+1

 

[DaveyF]

I haven't listened much to Lamm equipment but I know exactly what you are talking about. Some people are obsessed with brightness, not realizing it is just their coloring of the music.

Can anyone think of an inherently bright tube amp..or tube preamp for that matter?