ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458
- Thread starter Mike Lavigne
- Start date
There is at least one amp manufacturer who pick tube first or even manufacture their own tube and then design their amps around those tubes. So when you try rolling tube with those amp you are highly unlikely to get any better sound without compromising something further down the line. I say trust the experience of a designer like Vlad or someone who also own the tube manufacturing company and stick to their recommendation.
Kind regards,
Tang
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
IOW, if your ears are telling you something and the designer is telling you something else, trust the designer.
Not the way I run. YMMV.
amps in place. check!
I was happy to see that these amps are cosmetically perfect. not even dust smudges or anything on any of the black surfaces. they look unused.
my thoughtful son came over and lent a hand unloading the crates, and placing the amp chassis onto the SRA Virginia Class platforms. definitely a two person job especially with the close proximity of the dart 458's and the MM7's.
there did turn out to be 5 footers (one in dead center) under each chassis.
now need to place the tubes, hook it up, turn it on, and bias the driver tube. first; time to re-read the manual. I do have my trusty Fluke 87V multi meter on hand.
I was happy to see that these amps are cosmetically perfect. not even dust smudges or anything on any of the black surfaces. they look unused.
my thoughtful son came over and lent a hand unloading the crates, and placing the amp chassis onto the SRA Virginia Class platforms. definitely a two person job especially with the close proximity of the dart 458's and the MM7's.
there did turn out to be 5 footers (one in dead center) under each chassis.
now need to place the tubes, hook it up, turn it on, and bias the driver tube. first; time to re-read the manual. I do have my trusty Fluke 87V multi meter on hand.
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Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Woooo !! Well cream rises to the top--now the "cool dudes" can taste the fruit of their labours--while some (Moi!) sorta feel left behind ha!
So go guys enjoy!-- and to MikeL --a nicer guy and credit to the forum you would not meet --Kudos as we await the verdict/outcome of his venture into Lammland !
BruceD
So go guys enjoy!-- and to MikeL --a nicer guy and credit to the forum you would not meet --Kudos as we await the verdict/outcome of his venture into Lammland !
BruceD
ok. been listening for the last 2-3 hours to the ML3's......best 'hard' decision I ever made. but still work to do......
to start off with, had a crackling tube in one channel, went through replacing first the -4- 6N30P's, then the GM 70, and finally the 12ax7 which it seems was the culprit. so one channel has all the new set I got as back ups. i'll go back and re-insert the original 6N30P's and GM 70 to see if it was just the 12ax7 so my 'new' set is kept fresh for when they are needed.....like tonight. now I have a good excuse to splurge for that NOS Telefunken replacement set. now 3 hours in no more crackles. fingers crossed.
thank you David for the hand holding, and giving me some answers and clear steps to take. a learning process. (I think David is more excited for me having these amps than I am, and I am really stoked.)
and, of course, there is some noise (hum, tube rush, or whatever) when the music is not playing. I messed around with things and lowered it somewhat, but for the first night with a new tube amp it's par for the course and what I would have expected. could be a number of things and the dart 458's set the bar impossibly high in that area and no tube amp is going to equal that. but I know we can do better, although there is no musical consequence I can hear. so that's the bad stuff. pleasantly; it was very easy to change the cables from the darts to the ML3. I thought it might take 20 minutes. it took 5-6 minutes. so in the time either amp drains their power supplies I can switch the cables. bodes well for group sessions. it won't be anything to stress over. and a good little work out.
the sound is heavenly. and the synergy between my system and the ML3's is about perfect. the bass is absolutely coherent, the top end is extended and everything else is astonishing. the ML3's are total space machines, and have lots of weight and power down low. i'd say there is more 'apparent weight' to the ML3's than the darts......until the ML3 reach the limits of their performance envelope.....at which point the darts are just getting going and soar without limits.
in some ways the total lack of any sort of dynamic limitation to my room is frustrating with the ML3's since the room supports however far you want to push things, but the ML3's can only go so far. but that limit is quite high, but there definitely is one in my particular system. it's almost 1 am on a work night, and i'm still listening. i'm awestruck. the ML3's do every kind of music, right now i'm listening to Beethoven's 7th Symphony, and it's all there. yes; the throttle is a bit more conservative than I might consider with the darts......but there is no lessening of energy i'm hearing. all the space is there. and there is an added flow and 'suspension of disbelief' to the music. it's more dimensional and compelling. the view into the inner musical truth and emotional content is addicting.
these are first impressions in the honeymoon context of a new toy. we need a few back and forth's between the two amplifiers and a bit of time and perspective to really get a feel for how this will be. right now i'm under the spell.
to start off with, had a crackling tube in one channel, went through replacing first the -4- 6N30P's, then the GM 70, and finally the 12ax7 which it seems was the culprit. so one channel has all the new set I got as back ups. i'll go back and re-insert the original 6N30P's and GM 70 to see if it was just the 12ax7 so my 'new' set is kept fresh for when they are needed.....like tonight. now I have a good excuse to splurge for that NOS Telefunken replacement set.
now 3 hours in no more crackles. fingers crossed.thank you David for the hand holding, and giving me some answers and clear steps to take. a learning process. (I think David is more excited
for me having these amps than I am, and I am really stoked.)and, of course, there is some noise (hum, tube rush, or whatever) when the music is not playing. I messed around with things and lowered it somewhat, but for the first night with a new tube amp it's par for the course and what I would have expected. could be a number of things and the dart 458's set the bar impossibly high in that area and no tube amp is going to equal that. but I know we can do better, although there is no musical consequence I can hear. so that's the bad stuff. pleasantly; it was very easy to change the cables from the darts to the ML3. I thought it might take 20 minutes. it took 5-6 minutes. so in the time either amp drains their power supplies I can switch the cables. bodes well for group sessions. it won't be anything to stress over. and a good little work out.
the sound is heavenly. and the synergy between my system and the ML3's is about perfect. the bass is absolutely coherent, the top end is extended and everything else is astonishing. the ML3's are total space machines, and have lots of weight and power down low. i'd say there is more 'apparent weight' to the ML3's than the darts......until the ML3 reach the limits of their performance envelope.....at which point the darts are just getting going and soar without limits.
in some ways the total lack of any sort of dynamic limitation to my room is frustrating with the ML3's since the room supports however far you want to push things, but the ML3's can only go so far. but that limit is quite high, but there definitely is one in my particular system. it's almost 1 am on a work night, and i'm still listening. i'm awestruck. the ML3's do every kind of music, right now i'm listening to Beethoven's 7th Symphony, and it's all there. yes; the throttle is a bit more conservative than I might consider with the darts......but there is no lessening of energy i'm hearing. all the space is there. and there is an added flow and 'suspension of disbelief' to the music. it's more dimensional and compelling. the view into the inner musical truth and emotional content is addicting.
these are first impressions in the honeymoon context of a new toy. we need a few back and forth's between the two amplifiers and a bit of time and perspective to really get a feel for how this will be. right now i'm under the spell.
Going to be very interesting.
SOTA tubes v SOTA ss (that has tubes-like sensibility) thru absolutely full-range spkrs that are equally suited to low- as well as high-power (EAs 97dB eff).
My interest is whether the Lamms truly excel across all genres as the Darts do.
And whether how the Lamms illuminate the music brings new perspectives to performances off disc to Mike’s ear.
The ultimate take on this? Not Mike or any of us jaded listeners.
Get Xander back in the room, play 2112 off vinyl again, and measure the smile on the youngster’s face - how much wider is it Lamms v Darts.
SOTA tubes v SOTA ss (that has tubes-like sensibility) thru absolutely full-range spkrs that are equally suited to low- as well as high-power (EAs 97dB eff).
My interest is whether the Lamms truly excel across all genres as the Darts do.
And whether how the Lamms illuminate the music brings new perspectives to performances off disc to Mike’s ear.
The ultimate take on this? Not Mike or any of us jaded listeners.
Get Xander back in the room, play 2112 off vinyl again, and measure the smile on the youngster’s face - how much wider is it Lamms v Darts.
Considering the sensitivity of your speakers, you have the perfect excuse to go Telefunken.
The 12ax7 should be the dominant tube in this aspect, and the Telefunken's are known for their very low noise - it is why they were used in microphone amplifiers. Some members of the professional community hate audiophiles because their interest was the cause of the rise of the price of these now rare tubes. Beware of the fake Telefunken tubes - we must get them from knowledgeable sellers, some fakes are really hard to spot.
Considering the sensitivity of your speakers, you have the perfect excuse to go Telefunken.
I agree the Telefunken are, for some the holy grail of 12ax7, however this may not be the best tube for Mike in his system context.
I think the way to go forward is to try various types and settle on what floats his boat and remember there is a wild variance in Mu of these tubes.
I’ve tried, in my amps, Telefunken ECC83 smooth and ribbed, Tesla 803, RCA and settled in Raytheon Black plates, shown below, grey plates were inferior. Tele were too smooth/rich, Tesla were too clinical/neutral.
Great info at Jacmusic re. Fakes.http://www.jacmusic.com/JJ/803S-FAKE/index.html
Hmm, Lamms the ultimate cruise machine v Darts the ultimate fastest off the block and keeps getting faster.
It’s an oldie but a goodie, Joe’s tube lore
https://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.html#12AX7
https://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.html#12AX7
When I was young (yes, a long time ago), The Joy Of Sex got me going .
Now in my dotage, it’s The Joy Of SETs all the way .
Now in my dotage, it’s The Joy Of SETs all the way .
Congrats Mike! Great Decision.
I have always come back to Vlad's choice of tubes on my ML2.1's. I think he gets that voicing just right with his choices too. But then its personal choices that could differ your preference.
Love what the Lamm's can do with the bass and grip it has over the speaker drivers. Mids and tops never lag behind either.
Look forward to reading your future posts.
Best
Neville
I have always come back to Vlad's choice of tubes on my ML2.1's. I think he gets that voicing just right with his choices too. But then its personal choices that could differ your preference.
Love what the Lamm's can do with the bass and grip it has over the speaker drivers. Mids and tops never lag behind either.
Look forward to reading your future posts.
Best
Neville
Beautiful pile of amps there Mike. Virtual reality I assume
As far as the 12AX7 is concerned, there are many choices, but very few that are really great IMO.
The German tubes are on the neutral side of things and extremely resolute. The Telefunken being the quietest and cleanest. It is in no way a warm tube though. If your system is plenty warm, or easily tuned to be warmer, these are a good choice to put a microscope on the music.
I like the Valvo tubes myself. If you can find a nice set of quiet Valvo long plate 12AX7's, these are amazing sounding tubes. More body and slightly warmer than the Tele, with many of the same attributes otherwise.
If you can run 5751's in place of the 12AX7's, these are all pretty good really. I quite like the cheap standard grey plate Sylvania 5751's.
The Mullard 10M 12AX7 is also very good. It is a bit heavy on the bass, might be too warm, but it does have great extension and focus.
As far as the 12AX7 is concerned, there are many choices, but very few that are really great IMO.
The German tubes are on the neutral side of things and extremely resolute. The Telefunken being the quietest and cleanest. It is in no way a warm tube though. If your system is plenty warm, or easily tuned to be warmer, these are a good choice to put a microscope on the music.
I like the Valvo tubes myself. If you can find a nice set of quiet Valvo long plate 12AX7's, these are amazing sounding tubes. More body and slightly warmer than the Tele, with many of the same attributes otherwise.
If you can run 5751's in place of the 12AX7's, these are all pretty good really. I quite like the cheap standard grey plate Sylvania 5751's.
The Mullard 10M 12AX7 is also very good. It is a bit heavy on the bass, might be too warm, but it does have great extension and focus.
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