ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[Mike Lavigne]

i have no idea if i am in your league of digital...but i can say that i spent 0 time 5 years ago listening to orchestral...that changed with the big Wilsons...but it went up and down as i continued to hone and refine the system. But now, it plays an equal part with any other kind of music without hesitation. the next challenge was organ...played nearly nil...until the last 12-18 months (in fact, just realized we played an album today of pure organ).

But it took more than the Gryphon and the CJ and the TA Opus cables, and and and...it took (as Micro has said before) a remarkable amount of time to clear out the mess, noise, distortion (and in my case) vibration (in particular the digital) to enable the system to play orchestral and organ thru without warbling, losing, fainting, buckling under the pressure. (i am all digital.)

I am not sure i get to warp 9 as described by Mike...certainly not his level of Warp 9...but our room does allow the system to breath (39' x 17' x 11') and it can be surprisingly 'relaxing' to listen at full tilt when we know the neighbors are out just to see what the system is made of. At volume, it just continues to scale and soar (where the intense sweetness of a violin or a crescendo is particularly sweet because it has a lifelike scale to it...and without tensing up which is where you immediately run to turn it down.

interestingly...i just added Ultra 6s under the Colosseum as the final piece to this latest round of vibration/isolation...and it has once again inspired me to dig back into orchestral...funny...we played organ and John Williams Lincoln Soundtrack along with several Hans Zimmer soundtracks today. perhaps there is something to what you say about good clean power and digital.

Lloyd,

i'm sure this is not an 'on or off' type thing. there is likely a soft threshold where the quality of the digital combined with the ability of a room, system and signal path/amplifier headroom combines to enable the music to attain that sort of analog 'lift-off' to step into that 'suspension of disbelief' area specifically with large scale music. I do think there is a factor of refinement and information needed and who is to say what exact combination gets us there. only that it is another level of musical enjoyment and involvement that is out there to be found by those pushing the whole digital envelope.

for me it just keeps me listening and enjoying the music that previously it was a bit of work to enjoy. now it washes over me and carries me away so simply.

glad it's also touching you too.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

and there we go. 1001 posts in a couple hours short of 2 weeks.

 

[NorthStar]

That deserves an Oscar.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Surely - we can not agree on everything! BTW, one of my warp 10 recordings is Shostakovitch 8th - 3rd movement (Bernard Haitink, Concertgebouw Orchestra, digital recording) . Unfortunately I do not have such recording on tape, and my analog is not to the level of yours!

were it possible for us to listen together, my bet is that we would agree on this part. but then you could also take Ked's word for it.

 

[microstrip]

were it possible for us to listen together, my bet is that we would agree on this part. but then you could also take Ked's word for it.

The outcome would be easy to foresee - your system and Ked are fine tuned for analog!

My point that does not please either side is that currently each media has its better points, recording and listener preferences decide which we consider "better".

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The outcome would be easy to foresee - your system and Ked are fine tuned for analog!

My point that does not please either side is that currently each media has its better points, recording and listener preferences decide which we consider "better".

we will have to agree to disagree about that. hard to imagine a system more digital enabled than mine. I used digital tracks to adjust the speakers, set the wall treatments, and to judge the grounding effectiveness.

only that analog is optimized too. so it's a fair fight. just that digital brings the knife to the gun fight. boom.

 

[adyc]

ok; just saw 16 and 20 watt peaks (mostly -0- continuous) on the big drum whacks from dsd64 file of Copland's 'Fanfare for the Common Man', Atlantic Symphony Orchestra.

likely running about 75-78 db SPL's when it's not the quiet passages, peaks in the upper 80's to low 90's.(did not measure)

the music is broad and majestic sounding. great foundation and bass authority.

You are not listening to very loud level. My listening session usually is around 90dB with peak around 96dB measured with RadioShack or iPhone 9 feet from the speakers.

 

[LL21]

Lloyd,

i'm sure this is not an 'on or off' type thing. there is likely a soft threshold where the quality of the digital combined with the ability of a room, system and signal path/amplifier headroom combines to enable the music to attain that sort of analog 'lift-off' to step into that 'suspension of disbelief' area specifically with large scale music. I do think there is a factor of refinement and information needed and who is to say what exact combination gets us there. only that it is another level of musical enjoyment and involvement that is out there to be found by those pushing the whole digital envelope.

for me it just keeps me listening and enjoying the music that previously it was a bit of work to enjoy. now it washes over me and carries me away so simply.

glad it's also touching you too.

Absolutely! Since i dont do analog...i am still unsure as to why super clean power has such a great effect on digital (as opposed to vinyl) but I can say that effortless power DOES enable complexity and scale to come thru cleanly...in the absence of which, it comes thru a bit garbled/strained.

Interesting, just played a few albums whose bass USED to come across as quite strong/punchy...now, the bass is just as present/propulsive as before, but no longer seems quite so noticeable...it seems effortless and more natural (James Taylor Greatest Hits), and i think it must be related.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

You are not listening to very loud level. My listening session usually is around 90dB with peak around 96dB measured with RadioShack or iPhone 9 feet from the speakers.

you could be right. but there are a few reasons it is still musically engaging.

first, the noise floor is very very low. and I mean really low. there is zero apparent ambient noise (middle of 5 acres in a separate building, in the mountains away from traffic and any noise sources) so fewer SPL's are needed. and I listen in the nearfield so i'm getting lots more detail at lower SPL's than farfield listening.

the speakers are very efficient, and the first watt of the darts is very stout and compelling, the speaker is controlled and it does not need lots of wattage to get going.

lots of driver surface, so lots of air gets easily moved and things stay extremely linear, and the room is large so the SPL's fill the room but don't really seem so loud. the music can breathe. some speakers have a natural working level that is 'loud', even a bit too loud. I notice with MBL 101d's(e's?) that (almost always) their natural level where they come alive is a touch louder than I am comfortable with. so mostly i'm not comfortable with systems with that speaker that I've heard. either it's too soft and there is not engagement, or too loud and i'm not at ease listening. this is an important aspect for me and i'm very aware of it as I listen so much I don't want listening fatigue. music can be physically exhausting. (note; I have heard MBL 101 based systems that were fine in this area, so who knows what is going on with that issue?)

very live room, yet lots of the right surface treatments, so no lost energy yet no reflective hash to obscure detail.

good resonance control so no smearing and detail jumps out.

added note; with such a wide dynamic range for classical orchestral any estimated SPL level is a mean level only as there is such a wide disparity of SPL's. so maybe our two estimated levels are closer than I represented. I did not measure, but you did. I could be wrong. I have a meter somewhere that needs a battery and I will try to do a test and report.

 

[Al M.]

You are not listening to very loud level. My listening session usually is around 90dB with peak around 96dB measured with RadioShack or iPhone 9 feet from the speakers.

Mine is around 87-90 dBa (rock, jazz) and with peaks of 96 dBa for orchestral. In dB this all would be about 5 units louder, i.e. around 100 dB for orchestral peaks (I am not sure if your Radioshack meter measures in dBa or dB).

 

[rockitman]

You are not listening to very loud level. My listening session usually is around 90dB with peak around 96dB measured with RadioShack or iPhone 9 feet from the speakers.

That is my optimal loudness level too on average.

 

[morricab]

well. if you fundamentally don't view that digital can be 'uber' (reading between the lines) then not sure where this line of discussion can go. but.....here we go.....as digital gets better and better (bare with me here) it can take every advantage from higher signal path advantages. and especially large scale digital seems to benefit from the greater capacity of higher power amplification with more note expansion and soundstage expansion......something analog sort of does on it's own to a degree (whether that is an attribute, or artifact might be a question). so having lots of headroom in the amplification takes the most finely rendered large scale digital to higher heights. but more normal digital becomes a bit of 'more of the same' and not quite the same result. it does not have that analog sort of 'lift-off' in the same way.

like a door opening with higher levels of digital that with more 'normal' levels of digital you don't see that same door.

Micro and I have never discussed this before, so I don't know if this is what he was referring to, as this is just what I hear with the MSB Select II and the SGM server (Taiko Tana does not hurt either). these days I cannot listen to enough digital large scale classical music. i'm addicted to it.

and maybe i'm delusional.

Well, I have what I consider to be über digital (Aries Cerat Kassandra II DAC) but I am not sure what is your criteria for that designation. It seems to me you mean über priced. Where is the price cutoff for über? Do you mean only certain technological solutions qualify as über? Does the Nagra HD DAC or the Lampizator GG2 qualify? Or is only the new Pacific in that über category because it is now over $30K? The Soulution or CH Precision DACS? TotalDAC? Are all DACs with tube output stages automatically not über to you? Is a DAC that won't do DSD 512 native not über to you? Does a DAC with no over or up sampling using old R2R technology by default fall off the über train?

If live or even analog are a criteria to judge how good digital is, then are DACs such as DCS and MSB really über, when it is quite possible that other DACs out there get closer to an analog sound? I know that the Kondo DAC sounds quite analog as does my own DAC. Also, by sounding analog it sounds often more real to me.

The best sounding systems I have ever heard had relatively low power with relatively high sensitivity speakers...all had expensive DACs but not sure if you would call them über or not.

It seems like you need high power to wake things up in digital that isn't necessary in analog...that would send off alarm bells to me...

 

[morricab]

I think he just wants to rip them out, so that you have no choice but to play SETs. And not even the elks can stop him (save him?) from that single mindedness

Yes, but I would do it for his own good!

 

[morricab]

Absolutely! Since i dont do analog...i am still unsure as to why super clean power has such a great effect on digital (as opposed to vinyl) but I can say that effortless power DOES enable complexity and scale to come thru cleanly...in the absence of which, it comes thru a bit garbled/strained.

Interesting, just played a few albums whose bass USED to come across as quite strong/punchy...now, the bass is just as present/propulsive as before, but no longer seems quite so noticeable...it seems effortless and more natural (James Taylor Greatest Hits), and i think it must be related.

What high quality low(ish) powered SET or Class A triode PP have you tried to reach the conclusion that you need the "super clean power"? I assume you mean high power though and not just clean power.

 

[morricab]

ok; just saw 16 and 20 watt peaks (mostly -0- continuous) on the big drum whacks from dsd64 file of Copland's 'Fanfare for the Common Man', Atlantic Symphony Orchestra.

likely running about 75-78 db SPL's when it's not the quiet passages, peaks in the upper 80's to low 90's.(did not measure)

the music is broad and majestic sounding. great foundation and bass authority.

20 watts would be around 109db...especially because of how close you sit.

 

[Taiko Audio]

I want 100% of both. I guess i'm stuck.

I don't think it exists, the why is puzzling.

I've tried, listing only the extremes:
8W SET on 119dB sensitivity speakers
40W SE(T) on 99dB
2000W (7000W peak for 500msec) on 90dB

Ran 2 separate systems for a while as none could do both.

I settled on 550W tube amps as a compromise for now, I'm getting the NAT Magma's in for audition next month but expectations are low.

I suspect you're in trouble if you want both at your level in your room. I'm in 186m3 / 6600 ft3, similar to yours, it may be part of the problem.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Well, I have what I consider to be über digital (Aries Cerat Kassandra II DAC) but I am not sure what is your criteria for that designation. It seems to me you mean über priced. Where is the price cutoff for über? Do you mean only certain technological solutions qualify as über? Does the Nagra HD DAC or the Lampizator GG2 qualify? Or is only the new Pacific in that über category because it is now over $30K? The Soulution or CH Precision DACS? TotalDAC? Are all DACs with tube output stages automatically not über to you? Is a DAC that won't do DSD 512 native not über to you? Does a DAC with no over or up sampling using old R2R technology by default fall off the über train?

If live or even analog are a criteria to judge how good digital is, then are DACs such as DCS and MSB really über, when it is quite possible that other DACs out there get closer to an analog sound? I know that the Kondo DAC sounds quite analog as does my own DAC. Also, by sounding analog it sounds often more real to me.

The best sounding systems I have ever heard had relatively low power with relatively high sensitivity speakers...all had expensive DACs but not sure if you would call them über or not.

It seems like you need high power to wake things up in digital that isn't necessary in analog...that would send off alarm bells to me...

digital is a whole area where you have to do the investigations yourself to determine the pecking order. I know my own views based on my own process of investigations on what ultimate digital is, but there are multiple views. and it's apparently not been a significant question to answer for you to have spent time and money on. as an Aries Cerat dealer, it's logical that would be where you would start. I think Micro has his own answer to that question. as far as tubed output digital, I've only lived with one of them. and i'd say that in that case that yes, a DHT regulated output, seemed to 'get in the way' in a wonderful sense, to ultimate performance. too much coloration for my particular system. but I cannot generalize to other contexts about that. not sure sampling rate is a significant factor in degrees of 'uber-ness', but it could be. that's for you to determine. I took a number of years trying out various choices before I settled on the MSB Select II.......listening to it 5 or 6 times at shows and trying to find a more modestly priced alternative.

myself and Micro are simply independently reporting on an observed phenomena we have experienced. high power combined with ultimate digital and large scale music in our experience has done something special and more analog like. accept it or not, maybe it's collective delusions. YMMV. alarm bells? no.

 

[spiritofmusic]

70W Class A 211s plus 400W Class D to subs in my 800sq ft/5500cub ft room on true 101dB eff spkrs do the 90-95dB loudness thing just fine, w no shortage of tone and texture.
My 250W SS amp went louder, but w less organicness.
In my case I’d rather swap the last degree of room filling loudness for texture and tone density that fill the room at lower volumes w my tubes.
I do realise Mike that yr Darts have a more tubes-like signature than my Hovland Radia, so this is not strictly apples and apples. For me it’s a reasonable trade off, I listen to way more analog than digital, and lp playback via my tubes at more moderate volume saturates the room way easier than my digital. My cdp seemingly energises the room because it has that high end and deep bass that’s immediately easier to pick up on, a kind of easier immediacy. But it soon becomes apparent the mids and upper bass are more continuous, fleshed out and density is greater. Digital in my neutral room needs more welly to truly come alive. And that’s w possibly one of the most analog-like cdp.s ever.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

20 watts would be around 109db...especially because of how close you sit.

I sit with each ear at 100 inches, with tweeter to tweeter 109 inches. close, but more visually (than sonically) with -4- 7 foot tall 750 pound towers 100 inches away. in the dim/dark it does not seem close at all as it all disappears completely.

and peaks are peaks. they last milliseconds. sustained music would be very unusual at more than 3 or 4 watts. maybe certain voices or horns might get to 6 or 7 watts.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I don't think it exists, the why is puzzling.

I've tried, listing only the extremes:
8W SET on 119dB sensitivity speakers
40W SE(T) on 99dB
2000W (7000W peak for 500msec) on 90dB

Ran 2 separate systems for a while as none could do both.

I settled on 550W tube amps as a compromise for now, I'm getting the NAT Magma's in for audition next month but expectations are low.

I suspect you're in trouble if you want both at your level in your room. I'm in 186m3 / 6600 ft3, similar to yours, it may be part of the problem.

agree it's a question, a 'quest' if you will. who can predict the future? will both approaches satisfy enough to keep doing each one?

so far though I've fully enjoyed both approaches.....and in my mind they both work. and there are no rules or time limits.

obviously you have also 'played the field' to find hifi happiness.