Your hifi is crap...

[amirm]

Fascinating.
Out of curiosity how do the Chinese compare?

From business point of view, your ranks means a ton. And who you work for means a ton. Red carpet was always rolled out when I came over.

Very easy to do business with them compared to Japanese and Korean. The latter two can be very nationalistic, not wanting to incorporate American technology in their product. Not so with Chinese who saw this as a way to compete with them.

Funniest and barrier to communicating was that they have renamed all American company names! We were not "Microsoft" but "weeger" or something like that. It was the literal translation of "micro" and "soft." What this meant is that you could not even introduce yourself properly! Your company name had to be translated. This was a pain because I would get up early and go picture taking. Then try to get a cab to come back to the hotel. Problem was they had translated the Hyatt Hotel to another name and telling the taxi driver "Hyatt" would just get you a blank look! This, despite the word Hyatt being on the hotel sign in big letter. I had to carry the Hyatt hotel business card or you would be screwed as I was once.

Outside of that, I find that they are super good in adapting. I have managed many and they can act almost American. Go to a Chinese restaurant in Japan and the food is almost Japanese. You can't find any of the dishes we eat here, there!

 

[Barry2013]

Thanks Amirm.
Useful to know.

 

[DaveC]

Some years ago I was hired as a lead engineer designing Vestas Wind Turbines Nacelle and Hub assembly factory in Brighton, CO. Vestas is a Danish company and I spent the first 1.5 years working for Vestas Project Management group. I loved working in Denmark and the Danes were easy for me to relate to and work with. I like the forwardness and clarity in discussing topics and issue, that we can be open and critical and nobody took it personally. Eventually the factory and my services got handed over to an American production manager and everything went to ****, I really did not like the change in culture and ended up leaving. My experience is that Americans were very easy to offend and are not honest about how they feel. They put work as #1 priority and will do anything to get ahead. It made for an uncomfortable and inefficient work environment. I know every company is different and some have much better cultures and work environments, but this was a pretty bad experience I had when having to work under the US manager. It's probably best I work for myself

 

[Rodney Gold]

I deal extensively with China.. and get better quality and service from them than local
the key is a face to face meeting.. that they never say "no" to a request as its bad face .. they skirt around it.. in China ..maybe means NO
and that you can get anything cheaper there , but the cheaper you go , the more rubbish the product is .. they will make anything to a price point
China is all abut face to face , networks etc....

As to a bad system , all I do is make some constructive suggestions to "fix" it
Most ,if not all criticism , are based on room speaker interactions...
There is a difference between something overtly "wrong" vs a taste based thing.. dont extrapolate your taste to another's system..
IE if the treble is too hot for you .. it might be just fine for the listener

 

[bonzo75]

As to a bad system , all I do is make some constructive suggestions to "fix" it
Most ,if not all criticism , are based on room speaker interactions...
There is a difference between something overtly "wrong" vs a taste based thing.. dont extrapolate your taste to another's system..
IE if the treble is too hot for you .. it might be just fine for the listener

There are some factors of room interaction, and some of taste, however there are some factors of correctness. If you play 40 to 80 instruments for classical, some electronics and speakers which sound sublime for 4 instruments will just not be able to resolve them - in fact, most won't. Nothing to do with taste or room. Also, quite a lot of components which may be 'quiet' and 'detailed', can give the wrong tonality or a plasticky sound. However, this becomes evident on acoustic classical music, and not so much on miked music. There is a clear difference between fake and real. If you read ddk's post, and what Steve Williams has also emphasized after his ddk visit, it is looking for that realism and naturalness. IMO the best way to do that is to shut off one's hifi system for 6 months, and reset reference and tastes based on loads of live concert experiences followed by listening to radically different system designs. However that would require audiophiles to be open minded and then the fun would go

 

[Rodney Gold]

bonzo , no one has a real reference as to what the recorded sound should be like , unless you were in the control room when making the cd/whatever
the recording process itself diminishes tonality and realism...and the room mangles it even more..

So what one does is tune the system to taste and to represent the music in a way that enables you to suspend disbelief that you are listening to a recording..
that is subjective.
to call out anyone and say their system , and by implication , their choice , is bad is looking for trouble .. it's a direct affront to the owner.. to whom it may sound wonderful.

99.9% of all systems are a compromise , and even in a dedicated room , its still a compromise of sorts..I have visited audiophiles where the room was used as a lounge and WAF was paramount, no room to move anything or treat .. and it sounded crap.. but there was nothing that could be done barring some electronic RC .. so the best one can is be the soul of discretion

 

[spiritofmusic]

bonzo , no one has a real reference as to what the recorded sound should be like , unless you were in the control room when making the cd/whatever
the recording process itself diminishes tonality and realism...and the room mangles it even more..

So what one does is tune the system to taste and to represent the music in a way that enables you to suspend disbelief that you are listening to a recording..
that is subjective.
to call out anyone and say their system , and by implication , their choice , is bad is looking for trouble .. it's a direct affront to the owner.. to whom it may sound wonderful.

99.9% of all systems are a compromise , and even in a dedicated room , its still a compromise of sorts..I have visited audiophiles where the room was used as a lounge and WAF was paramount, no room to move anything or treat .. and it sounded crap.. but there was nothing that could be done barring some electronic RC .. so the best one can is be the soul of discretion

For me, I can't help be stirred by live classical, but reproduction of it at home, or trying to, is not my Holy Grail.
For me, getting to the warmth and tone density of small scale live jazz, is what I've been trying to emulate, and I believe SETs/high efficiency non x'overd spkrs get me closer than any other system I've heard and wanted to invest in.
That's not to say other stuff wouldn't do as well or better, just that the balance here of plusses w/fewer minuses is speaking to me.
And not at all to say that chasing the Holy Grail of live classical dynamics and neutrality is wrong, far from it.
And so listeners w/different parameters are likely to hate things here, others will be absorbed.
I think despite being guilty of my pride being hurt by frank criticisms, it's probably right to take things on the chin.
But it can get confusing if many pieces of gear divides opinions sharply between two people arguing about sound, or the criticism just seems inexplicable.
Strong criticism of an old system of mine, re lack of dynamics, led me to invest in balanced power, and I haven't looked back.
Recent criticism leading to me installing tentative room treatments has been worth following thru too.

 

[PeterA]

Good thread. I have an audio buddy who continually tells me that my Transparent Audio cables are crap. I smile silently knowing that he also once described my system as one of the most accurate and natural sounding that he has ever heard, and that was shortly after I had installed the cables.

Audio criticism is an interesting topic. Occasionally we can be quite candid in our criticisms. I see this more often when opinions are solicited directly in person during a listening session. However, I have also heard people denigrate others' systems behind their backs with tepid praise and the suggestion that one must hear the system for oneself. I think that much has to do with how well one knows someone and whether or not they really want to risk offending a newly acquaintanced audiophile.

I am sure we all have forum reputations about where we fall on this spectrum. That reputation may or may not correspond to what one says in person about another system. Within my local audiophile group of buddies, we tend to be fairly frank, especially when purchase decisions are involved. It is easy to think that the owner is the only one who needs to be pleased with his system, but I actually think that others' opinions matter quite a bit to us. There is a lot of advice solicited on the forums and in person, and I think people really do care what others think about their systems.

Another aspect about all of this that is not often discussed is a particular audiophile's level of experience and how much his opinions are valued. People tend to present themselves as experts, especially on forums. I remember hearing my first few serious systems in other people's houses and at dealerships. The quality of sound was all over the place, yet everyone spoke with such confidence and few admitted that they were new to the hobby, not very experienced or had much to learn. I did not have the experience to realize that some of these people did not really know what they were talking about. I simply absorbed everything I heard and didn't criticize anyone or any of the systems. Now, years later, I have come to recognize and appreciate those who have a lot of experience in, and knowledge about, the hobby. It is those opinions and advice that I now seek out, regardless of how it is delivered.

 

[Rodney Gold]

As much as we might bleat otherwise.. one generally wants the affirmation of our peers to bolster our sense of knowing what we doing..

I like showing off my system...getting others take on it..

My first prize would be to get the speaker designer at my place and get his take on how his creations sound

As an aside.. I had 30 family and friends over last months .. about 15 crowded nto my room and asked me to play something
I selected hotel california .. hell freezes over and cranked it..

a couple got up and danced and afterwards a cousin came to me and said "music will never be the same".... that to me was affirmation enough

 

[amirm]

Let me add some data to the hifi critique bit. In public, there is nothing but praise for the highest of high-end elite audiophile systems. In private, without exception, those elite audiophiles scuff at the other people's systems to the point of calling them "crap" and "the guy has no idea what good sound is." We know to this to at least be partially true as none have the system as the other guy. Why wouldn't you run out and buy that system if what you heard was "audio nirvana" or "the best sound I have heard?"

If you are relying on such reports as validation of what you have bought and assembled, I am afraid you are using potentially highly flawed foundation.

As the article said, in US at least we are very polite when it comes to such things to the point of outright misstating the truth, both in person in the listening stage and in forums. If you want the truth to come out, offer something that is wrong with your system, be modest and create a situation where criticism is welcome. Otherwise, you have set the stage for someone to not ever give you honest feedback.

 

[bonzo75]

Why wouldn't you run out and buy that system if what you heard was "audio nirvana" or "the best sound I have heard?"
.

What's the fun in the hobby then. If I buy a whole set up, and bring down a room acoustics expert to fine tune, life would be so boring.

 

[amirm]

If you are relying on such reports as validation of what you have bought and assembled, I am afraid you are using potentially highly flawed foundation.

Notice how correct the article was in my without thinking about that, inserted used the phrase "I am afraid ... potentially..."

 

[amirm]

What's the fun in the hobby then. If I buy a whole set up, and can down a room acoustics, expert to fine tune, life would be so boring.

That's fair. You got me there....

 

[bonzo75]

If you sort your room, a fairly modestly priced system can sound superb ,in contrast a hugely expensive system in a untreated room may sound poor.
Keith.

How much are your speakers again?

 

[PeterA]

Let me add some data to the hifi critique bit. In public, there is nothing but praise for the highest of high-end elite audiophile systems. In private, without exception, those elite audiophiles scuff at the other people's systems to the point of calling them "crap" and "the guy has no idea what good sound is." We know to this to at least be partially true as none have the system as the other guy. Why wouldn't you run out and buy that system if what you heard was "audio nirvana" or "the best sound I have heard?"

If you are relying on such reports as validation of what you have bought and assembled, I am afraid you are using potentially highly flawed foundation.

As the article said, in US at least we are very polite when it comes to such things to the point of outright misstating the truth, both in person in the listening stage and in forums. If you want the truth to come out, offer something that is wrong with your system, be modest and create a situation where criticism is welcome. Otherwise, you have set the stage for someone to not ever give you honest feedback.

When I first started reading audio forums, it seemed as though most posters went to the trouble of posting and sharing their systems in a site's virtual systems section. Those who didn't, at least described their systems in their signatures.

That practice does not seem to be as popular as it once was. If people are hesitant to say or to write anything negative on line about systems, what is the downside to sharing one's system with fellow members. I think it can add further context to understand a poster's point of view. These virtual system threads can also be great reads with wonderful stories and photographs. They are also a place where one can learn about specific component matching and system/room relationships.

Fellow cofounder, Steve Williams, has shared his system and audio journey with the members and I have found it to be an excellent contribution to the forum. Even if some of the comments are full of praise, admiration and aspirational sentiments, they can be very informative.

Amir, have you noticed a change in posting system information since you started the forum? If so, what do you think has caused it?

 

[amirm]

When I first started reading audio forums, it seemed as though most posters went to the trouble of posting and sharing their systems in a site's virtual systems section. Those who didn't, at least described their systems in their signatures.

That practice does not seem to be as popular as it once was. If people are hesitant to say or to write anything negative on line about systems, what is the downside to sharing one's system with fellow members. I think it can add further context to understand a poster's point of view. These virtual system threads can also be great reads with wonderful stories and photographs. They are also a place where one can learn about specific component matching and system/room relationships.

Fellow cofounder, Steve Williams, has shared his system and audio journey with the members and I have found it to be an excellent contribution to the forum. Even if some of the comments are full of praise, admiration and aspirational sentiments, they can be very informative.

Some people are more of a "voyeur" when it comes to their systems, others are not. Perhaps Steve and I are examples of those extremes. That said, I do plan to create a thread on my system (first time ever) but nothing will go in my signature. And the reason I am doing it is to avoid the criticism that I have not done so. Not for any need I have personally to share the details of my system.

Amir, have you noticed a change in posting system information since you started the forum? If so, what do you think has caused it?

The only thing I have seen in our forum is the signature lines growing. We used to enforce the 4 line limit but no longer do (see TOS #12).

 

[PeterA]

That said, I do plan to create a thread on my system (first time ever) but nothing will go in my signature... Not for any need I have personally to share the details of my system.

That is an interesting way to put it, Amir. I had though that I created a virtual system because it added context to my posts as a new member of this forum and that it served as a way for me to document my audio journey and various changes to the system. It was also kind of fun to put it all together. But now that you mention the notion of one's need to share with others, perhaps there is more to it than I had originally thought. Do you think that this may also help to explain why some of us are such frequent posters on audio forums.

Please let us know when you create a thread of your system since there will not be a reference to it in your signature.

The only thing I have seen in our forum is the signature lines growing. We used to enforce the 4 line limit but no longer do (see TOS #12).

I admit to not observing the TOS more closely. I have just edited my signature to four lines.

 

[amirm]

That is an interesting way to put it, Amir. I had though that I created a virtual system because it added context to my posts as a new member of this forum and that it served as a way for me to document my audio journey and various changes to the system. It was also kind of fun to put it all together. But now that you mention the notion of one's need to share with others, perhaps there is more to it than I had originally thought. Do you think that this may also help to explain why some of us are such frequent posters on audio forums.

No, seeing how I have 10X more posts than you do . Seriously, there is no right or wrong behavior here. I am a rather private person so my practices reflect that. I was listening to an engineering blog and they had a security expert on. He said he has a bandaid on his laptop's camera as to eliminate any chance of someone ever hacking into his system and watching him! I don't have a bandaid on mine but can see where he is coming from.

I do plan on documenting some aspects of my system build though. One is my new hardware server and the other is choice of music application. I will be writing those as independent articles/reviews than my "system thread."

Please let us know when you create a thread of your system since there will not be a reference to it in your signature.

I assume people will see it when they hit "new post." Otherwise, if they miss it, that is just fine by me .

I admit to not observing the TOS more closely. I have just edited my signature to four lines.

While your new signature looks better to me (it allows more posts per page to show up), you did not have to do that. As I said, we no longer enforce that rule.

 

[PeterA]

Amir, I think there may be more interest in your system thread than you anticipate. You are such a frequent poster that additional information about your system may be very helpful in understanding more of the context on which your opinions are based. It will certainly be interesting to learn more about the system reference you use when reading your comments about sound reproduction.

Someone once described my system as slightly dark sounding. After I heard his system, I had a much better understanding of the basis for his comment. The more information, or data, one has, the better, as far as I'm concerned. But that does raise the issue of just how much one wants to share on something like the internet or a public audio forum. I respect and appreciate one's preference for privacy.

I also understand that there may be other interests involved, and notice that few industry insiders and manufacturers share their system information. What perceptions and opinions others may have are also difficult things to control in a public context.

"Your hifi is crap..." is an opinion easily avoided if no one ever hears the system regardless of which cultural biases are influencing the delivery of the message.

 

[BlueFox]

I went for the longest time without a sig, but the arguments in regard to providing context for posts persuaded me to add it. I used to think it was a vanity thing, at least amongst some posters, but I can understand its relevance in the context sense.