Zero Distortion: Leif's System with TAD 4003 based dual FLH

[bonzo75]

The above was with a smaller jmlc (350), 4001, 2001 as tweeter, and tweeter inside

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

early stage with BD matrix basstowers left over from Trio
still 270

 

[morricab]

if I should have the tweeter below 270 horns it would have to be pulled back about half a meter for mechanical time alignment, which is the price of a passive filter and no dsp
to give it enough space I´d have to lift the 270 quite much and would loose integration, not gain
don´t think Ked was bothered by the 2002s on top at my 4+ meters listening distance
tweeters on the side between 270 and FLH is like the AG Trio solution where one couldn´t move the head sideways without feeeling hit by a beam of HF or NOT
tried tweeter centering on Trio too by lifting midhorn, but no success either

Thanks for the explanation. I note that the Living Voice Vox Olympian also puts the tweeter way at the top as well with no apparent integration issues. I was not implying you have an issue, just wondering out loud about integration.

 

[bonzo75]

Living voice vox has a radial midrange (which has better horizontal and less vertical dispersion) with the modern vitavox driver, then a narrow trumpet higher frequency with the smaller TAD, and above that a bullet TAD tweeter. No wonder I was hearing lack of coherence, now I understand why. And a one woofer backloaded mid bass, then two lab subs in a posh frock

This reminds me of when I was in university we would order anything at the college canteen and then put various sauces on it and mix it all up

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

LV also mixes radiation patterns in different bands, which I don´t think is a good thing
that said, they were still among the best sounding systems when I attended Munich 2018
by rotating the TAD 703, they can in a certain way influence the perceived soundstage height, width and depth and minimize diffraction issues
I did the same when I rebuild my AG Trio to Quattro by adding a JBL 2405 ring radiator tweeter with a "slot horn"

 

[christoph]

http://horns-diy.pl/horns/minphase/minphase-200/

As near as I can tell it's not an oblate spheroid...something like JMLC but more curved over.

When I look at the pictures I would rather guess it is this one...
http://horns-diy.pl/horns/jmlc/jmlc-200t/
...used in the Universums

 

[morricab]

LV also mixes radiation patterns in different bands, which I don´t think is a good thing
that said, they were still among the best sounding systems when I attended Munich 2018
by rotating the TAD 703, they can in a certain way influence the perceived soundstage height, width and depth and minimize diffraction issues
I did the same when I rebuild my AG Trio to Quattro by adding a JBL 2405 ring radiator tweeter with a "slot horn"

I think it took a lot of blood, sweat and tears (and about 20 years) of tweaking to get the LV speaker to sound like it does. With these large horns it seems a tradeoff between close proximity of drivers to increase integration or mechanical time alignment...it is difficult to do both. With DSP you can achieve both but not everyone is convinced DSP is totally transparent...

 

[bonzo75]

I think it took a lot of blood, sweat and tears (and about 20 years) of tweaking to get the LV speaker to sound like it does. With these large horns it seems a tradeoff between close proximity of drivers to increase integration or mechanical time alignment...it is difficult to do both. With DSP you can achieve both but not everyone is convinced DSP is totally transparent...

I really doubt that is anything more than a marketing claim. All LV has is some high quality drivers for a commercial speaker, gold, and key is it is backed by a battery power supply that allows the system to run on a yacht and work off the grid at Munich. It avoids some horn stereotype that people not into horns are concerned about horns doing, like cupping and shoutiness

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I´ve never heard a dsp´d system I could live with
I call it Gladpack sound; like hearing all through a thin invisible layer of transparent foil
no way I´m letting my A80s or vinyl or even the Sequerra pass through that

don´t forget the furniture builder who polishes the wood surfaces for weeks on end

 

[bonzo75]

Either way I would like to know the difference between the min phase 200 and JMLC 200. I read a post stating that Le cleach himself made a comment that the min phase is an improvement in his design.

 

[morricab]

I really doubt that is anything more than a marketing claim. All LV has is some high quality drivers for a commercial speaker, gold, and key is it is backed by a battery power supply that allows the system to run on a yacht and work off the grid at Munich. It avoids some horn stereotype that people not into horns are concerned about horns doing, like cupping and shoutiness

We will agree to disagree...I think it is an amazing sounding system...easily one of the very few that make you forget you are listening to a stereo.

 

[bonzo75]

We will agree to disagree...I think it is an amazing sounding system...easily one of the very few that make you forget you are listening to a stereo.

That also happens to me with Montesquieu's vintage tannoys at 1/100th the speaker retail. To forget you are listening to stereo takes a sensible set up, after which it is a long journey for perfection

 

[bonzo75]

This is funny though, even if someone decides they like JMLC, it is then resin vs wood, and now jmlc vs min phase. It is never ending

 

[morricab]

That also happens to me with Montesquieu's vintage tannoys at 1/100th the speaker retail. To forget you are listening to stereo takes a sensible set up, after which it is a long journey for perfection

I haven't heard a Tannoy that gets 1/100th of the realism...

 

[morricab]

This is funny though, even if someone decides they like JMLC, it is then resin vs wood, and now jmlc vs min phase. It is never ending

I considered the Min phase 600 but decided it was kind of large and thought the Iwata 600 looked pretty cool (it is not a traditional Iwata but a JMLCized version) and had nice curves with a B&C DE250.

 

[kodomo]

Either way I would like to know the difference between the min phase 200 and JMLC 200. I read a post stating that Le cleach himself made a comment that the min phase is an improvement in his design.

They have different curves, but to get smoother response and better off axis response or lets say better constant directivity, minphase mouth size gets bigger. As no speaker is just one part, this horn can not be evaluated by itself, if the size works with the rest of the design then minphase would be a good choice, if not even though it is a better horn it may not be the right piece for the design. Take Leif's midbass horns that you really like, the horns are conical and have no rollover at mouth, they are -in isolated evaluation- not good horns but for the job they have need to do, they are the right horns.

ps. If you want to learn more about minphase, read Michael Gerstgrasser

 

[bonzo75]

His jmlc has rollback, so we are talking about evaluating autotech jmlc with rollback vs autotech minphase for the same cutoff

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

the rollback is a stroke of genious imo

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I doubt min phase will suit Leif’s install because as the mouth size needs to be quite a bit bigger versus JMLC for same fc, it creates issues with physical time alignment and position of his top tweeter channel

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Specifically that the tweeter would need to be a lot higher or cited under it with same issue as Leif said earlier about under the mid