ZYX UNIverse Supreme ll / SME 3012R versus Ortofon Anna /Graham Phantom Elite

[TBone]

Actually not really. Before my Zyx I've only owned Dynavector, so not much personal experience with carts!

Dyna's are long time favorites here, certain 'philes are totally devoted to 'em. Relatively recently I was sent a pro rip(24/96) Supertramp's COTC, Speakers Corner LP. Being this is one LP I've struggled to reproduce properly, or at least to my liking, I wanted a comparison. His rips, played back natively or after conversion to 16/44, even with digital intervention (pop noise removal) which I don't like/use, this rip was easily superior my live LP. I felt this particular rip "better" than his otherwise excellent prior efforts, and he reported back he had switched to the top Dyna model. Superbly tight, lean, gripping/digging bass. Same arm & table, different cart. That said, I've always felt that freq.extremes were dictated as much by arm and turntable, even some v.expensive models, blur and morph the lowest most delicate bass lines into musical submission on a constant basis ... simply b/c they don't have the required super-low noise floor.

BTW, it's so nice to not have to read constant uneducated "fisher-price" comments in near every analog based thread here ... small mercies indeed.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

BTW, it's so nice to not have to read constant uneducated "fisher-price" comments in near every analog based thread here ... small mercies indeed.

+1

 

[Andrew Stenhouse]

BTW, it's so nice to not have to read constant uneducated "fisher-price" comments in near every analog based thread here ... small mercies indeed.

What is a "fisher-price" comment?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

What is a "fisher-price" comment?

"Fisher-Price" is a 70's and 80's toy company in the USA that made, among other toys, a 'toy' turntable. some recently 'separated' members here had a level of turntable experience we can equate with the below iconic toy turntable. yet they continually inserted their opinions into vinyl threads without any basis for their comments. which unduly caused continual defensiveness, disrupted the dialog, and pushed people away from participating.

 

[Andrew Stenhouse]

Oh, thanks Mike. Sorry didn't get the context. Thought it must be a US thing.

 

[PeterA]

What is a "fisher-price" comment?

"I think" TBone was referring to Blizzard's comments about analog and his last turntable at age four which he shared with the forum. It looks like MikeL found the photo of Blizzard's table. Yes, those comments were not based on much experience and somewhat distracting.

 

[XV-1]

Agreed, and more than just changing arms for comparison ... the most difficult items to "review" are analog based ... much time, w/proper references, and a bevy of experience is required. An afternoon listening session, is just that, an afternoon listening session.

Yes indeed. Many more variables with analog. Even from the choice of the two tonearms, anyone with some experience in analog will understand that SME will be a little denser/softer and Graham more neutral/clinical - probably more of a difference than the cartridges. I won't even touch upon the ability of a reviewer to be able to setup and tweak cartridges if necessary.

Frankly how Mono & Stereo could allow it to go to print as a review is mind boggling. As an afternoon listening session observations, absolutely.

 

[steve williams]

Yes indeed. Many more variables with analog. Even from the choice of the two tonearms, anyone with some experience in analog will understand that SME will be a little denser/softer and Graham more neutral/clinical - probably more of a difference than the cartridges. I won't even touch upon the ability of a reviewer to be able to setup and tweak cartridges if necessary.

Frankly how Mono & Stereo could allow it to go to print as a review is mind boggling. As an afternoon listening session observations, absolutely.

I am no expert as most of you here. I have learned from all of you over the years. I agree about your comment about the Graham arm but I am not so certain I agree with you about the SME based on listening in my system for the past 2 months and 6 months with the Graham

 

[XV-1]

I use Nordost for the Graham Elite arm and IIRC a NOS Van Den Hul cable for the SME 3012 arm. I love the Anna as well Mike

Hi Steve.

an easy swap is the tonearm cables. swap them over and let us know what you hear.

cheers

 

[XV-1]

I am no expert as most of you here. I have learned from all of you over the years. I agree about your comment about the Graham arm but I am not so certain I agree with you about the SME based on listening in my system for the past 2 months and 6 months with the Graham

Hi Steve. the SME comment is relative to the Graham tonearm - of course its not soft or dense sounding. But you will never know if you don't swap the cartridges and tonearm cables around. you might get better synergy ................. or worse

cheers

 

[steve williams]

The other factor that no one has mentioned yet is the difference in arm lengths and I know that must be a very big factor

 

[PeterA]

Hi Steve.

an easy swap is the tonearm cables. swap them over and let us know what you hear.

cheers

Do both tonearm cables have the same termination into the arm? I thought the SME is a DIN connection and the Graham has RCA? I could be wrong.

 

[PeterA]

The other factor that no one has mentioned yet is the difference in arm lengths and I know that must be a very big factor

Steve, I seem to remember that the two armboards are also slightly different. The main mount on the right is integral to the main body of the turntable and the armboard in the back is a cantilever. They may even be different materials and take different length arms. This too would contribute to differences in sound. There are so many variables. I found this photo:

 

[steve williams]

Do both tonearm cables have the same termination into the arm? I thought the SME is a DIN connection and the Graham has RCA? I could be wrong.

actually it's the other way around

 

[DaveyF]

As I posted before, there are numerous variables in the set up and running of an analog front end. There is a camp that strongly believes that a DIN connection at the tonearm is the only way to go, conversely there are people who believe that no connections should be between the cartridge pins and the connection to the phono preamp. Just as there is a strong movement for extreme rigidity in the tonearm and of the cartridge mounting connection to the headshell ( or lack thereof). IME, all of these points have value and are to be considered...assuming that one has the basics correct first. ( correct setting of the VTF and VTA and SRA and lastly...azimuth). I think the difference in arm length is also a factor...as Steve points out. Interestingly, MF has gone away from the 'longer is better' camp ( no jokes here) and now states that the extra length of a tonearm is not beneficial due to the decrease in rigidity and potential fulcrum problems..vs. the benefit of 'slightly' better geometry. Many thoughts here, but I personally believe that one's ears have to be the final arbiter...and if an a'phile is happy with his set up, then that is all that is truly required. Steve, if you are happy with your Graham/ Anna combo, then all else is moot, IMHO.

 

[XV-1]

Do both tonearm cables have the same termination into the arm? I thought the SME is a DIN connection and the Graham has RCA? I could be wrong.

I knew the Graham was SME mount by looking at the photos in Mono&Stereo so is DIN. I just assumed the SME was DIN like all their production arms, however as Steve has confirmed it is indeed RCA.

 

[steve williams]

As I posted before, there are numerous variables in the set up and running of an analog front end. There is a camp that strongly believes that a DIN connection at the tonearm is the only way to go, conversely there are people who believe that no connections should be between the cartridge pins and the connection to the phono preamp. Just as there is a strong movement for extreme rigidity in the tonearm and of the cartridge mounting connection to the headshell ( or lack thereof). IME, all of these points have value and are to be considered...assuming that one has the basics correct first. ( correct setting of the VTF and VTA and SRA and lastly...azimuth). I think the difference in arm length is also a factor...as Steve points out. Interestingly, MF has gone away from the 'longer is better' camp ( no jokes here) and now states that the extra length of a tonearm is not beneficial due to the decrease in rigidity and potential fulcrum problems..vs. the benefit of 'slightly' better geometry. Many thoughts here, but I personally believe that one's ears have to be the final arbiter...and if an a'phile is happy with his set up, then that is all that is truly required. Steve, if you are happy with your Graham/ Anna combo, then all else is moot, IMHO.

All else is moot Davey. I'm really happy with the two setups. Merely different flavors. I happen to enjoy both. Perhaps when David visits again we can do that experiment as I am most interested.